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Many women who run service-based practices are skilled at their work but wary of looking as though they are chasing sign-ups. In Episode 67 of The Jane Anderson Show, I raise that concern with Melbourne-based executive leadership and business coach Emma McQueen, and Emma describes how she approaches it.
This article looks at how to build an email list without being salesy, drawing on Emma’s account of her own experience. She has an HR background and, when the episode was recorded, had run her coaching practice full time for about five years. Her approach combined a weekly newsletter, small events she hosted, free clarity calls, a book, and deliberate choices about who she works with. It is one practitioner’s experience, not a formula or a promise of results.
Why List Building Matters Once Early Momentum Fades
The Pipeline Wall
I see a pattern in practices about two to three years in. Early on, friends, colleagues and past contacts rally behind a new business, and the first wins arrive. Then the momentum slows, and the owner realises the real constraint is the pipeline of future clients. In my view, the missing piece is often the discipline of building a list, and it is not glamorous work. I also find that many women are wary of list building because they don’t want to look obvious about it.
Why Emma Says the Work Never Finishes
Emma’s view is that list building never ends. Even five years in, she says, she is still building her list, because people’s circumstances change, some drop off and new people arrive. She admits that she once became so absorbed in the detail of how to build a list that she had to step back from it.
Start With a Newsletter You Can Keep Up
Emma’s starting point was consistency. In her first year of full-time practice, she worked hard at being consistent with her newsletter, her branding and her presence generally. Friends told her she seemed to be everywhere. Emma says she privately read that as a sign her positioning was working, but she kept the thought to herself.
Her husband asked whether that pace was sustainable, and Emma says the answer was to build systems. She is candid that things look effortless mainly once good systems are in place, and that it isn’t always effortless.
The newsletter had a second job. Emma wanted to write a book but didn’t see herself as a strong writer, so she taught herself by writing a newsletter every week for two years. She says that gave her confidence that she had something to say, and showed her that consistency over time works.
She also names the catch. Writing newsletters that nobody reads achieves little, which is why the list matters. Emma and I treat the newsletter and the list as a pair.
For more on staying visible without sending messages in every direction, see Mandy Napier on stopping “spray and pray” marketing.
Give People Something to Invite Them To: Emma’s Small Events
Lunch with the Queen
Emma says she often received requests from people wanting to pick her brain. She decided to say yes, but to bring other women into the conversation too, and she created Lunch with the Queen. It ran for about two years. Each lunch was capped at 10 women and lasted around two hours, and attendees paid whatever lunch cost. Emma says the lunches let her meet other women and swap ideas, and she describes them as a great list-building activity that gained traction.
She recalls one Christmas lunch with about 40 women in the room.
Business with the Queen
Since COVID, Emma also runs Business with the Queen, a networking event on Zoom. It lasts 90 minutes and includes some content. Emma says few women she has met enjoy networking, so she set it up as a safe space. She hopes attendees leave with new connections and perhaps new business, and she builds her list at the same time. She sees it as a win for everyone involved. Her website currently lists an event of the same name as a 90-minute Zoom session.
Inviting People Instead of Asking for Sign-Ups
I point out that none of the language around these events is about building a list. Instead, people are invited to a lunch or an experience, and the value of attending is what gets promoted. I link this to advice from Michael Port, author of Book Yourself Solid, about always having something to invite people to.
Emma adds a point about fit. She prefers deeper relationships, which is why she says in the recording that she doesn’t work with anyone for less than 12 months. Small events suit that preference, and she says people have a better experience of her in a smaller group. Someone with different strengths, she suggests, might prefer a masterclass, webinar or webcast. I add that the experience at an event should match what it is like to work with Emma, so there is no disconnect in the promise.
Use a Free Clarity Call to Build Trust, Not Pressure
Emma describes a free half-hour clarity call. People bring a problem and they work on getting unstuck. She says it doesn’t matter to her whether the person ends up working with her. If they like her style, they may work together, and if not, there is no pressure. I note that people can book a meeting through Emma’s website.
Emma is firm about follow-up. If a call shows they are not a good fit, she tells the person, usually by phone, and may suggest other coaches. She considers it unprofessional to leave someone wondering. I say this builds trust and reputation, and that it spares Emma from taking on the wrong client for 12 months.
Emma also links her clarity calls to her group program. She says loneliness kept coming up in those calls, and she created Thriving Women, a 12-month program capped at 15 women. When the episode was recorded, the program was in its fourth year. Members attend a monthly workshop, dinner or event, and receive coaching with Emma.
For a different approach to group coaching, see Desley Lodwick’s approach to group coaching.
Let a Book or White Paper Do Some of the Positioning
Emma’s book, Go-Getter: Raise Your Mojo, Shift Your Mindset and Thrive , grew out of material she already had. She had a white paper and two years of weekly newsletters, and she noticed her writing was consistent. She worked on the book over two days using my process, and says she finished it in her hotel room afterwards. She had held off on her usual pizza reward until it was done.
Emma says she didn’t want to be someone who writes a book and then sees nothing happen. She published through a self-publishing service, and she wanted to know who bought the book so she could follow up. Her web person built a front-end page for that, which Emma describes as a way to connect with buyers. She says she sold a lot of books. Emma also says the book is available on Audible, narrated by her, with some extra stories.
Emma’s view is that if you want to position yourself as an expert, you should write a book, or at least have a white paper, so people can hear your voice. She shares one example. A prospective client read the book over a weekend and then said she wanted to work with Emma. That is one story from Emma, not a typical result.
For more on building your expert positioning, see Jackie Stapleton on how to become a thought leader.
Choose the Clients and Tactics That Fit You
What Emma Said No To
Emma says that when you first start, you say yes to work. A year or two later, you may realise you don’t like it. Because of her HR background, she says, she can get drawn into HR work, and early on she did a fair amount of mediation, which she disliked. She also moved away from what she describes as stiff corporate clients.
Her target market is now women with their own business, usually service-based, and women in leadership roles, working one on one. She says that last year she decided to stop taking corporate training and development programs, although a couple of ongoing clients remain. I commented that turning this work down involved big deals.
Emma also notes that clarity doesn’t come at the start. You try some things, work out what is in your wheelhouse, and then test whether anyone will pay for it. Her example is a retreat. People often tell her she should run one, but when she asks what they would pay, they tend to back away once they hear the cost. Encouragement, she points out, isn’t the same as paying clients.
On choosing a focus, see Maureen Kyne on how to niche down as a consultant.
Working Out Your Version
Emma used my four quadrants of lead generation (direct contact, network and search, awareness, and educate) to check that she had each area covered. I make the point that you don’t need every part. What matters is making a conscious choice. Emma chooses not to speak at conferences, so Lunch with the Queen is her version of that quadrant.
She is a mum of three with limited time, so she asks where her time will give the biggest return. She also says that even when the foundations are in place, you sometimes need to start again, and that is fine.
Who Emma Works With
Emma's focus is women who run service-based businesses and women in leadership roles, although she also works with some men.
What Emma Would Do Differently
Asked what she would change, Emma says she would start earlier and doubt herself less. She recalls a stack of changes going through World Vision that she would have had to help implement in the HR area. She told her husband she didn’t want any of those jobs and wondered aloud about taking another HR director role. He reminded her that she had talked about having her own business for five years. She says she probably wouldn’t have started when she did without that nudge. She also notes that she didn’t know how much work a business involves until she began.
Questions to Ask Before You Choose Your Approach
Emma’s experience suggests a few questions worth asking yourself:
Do you prefer one-on-one depth or larger groups?
What would your version of an invitation look like?
What are you saying yes to that you wouldn’t choose again?
Frequently Asked Questions
How can I build an email list without sounding salesy?
Emma builds her list through her newsletter and through events she hosts. I note that the language around those events is about the value attendees get, not about the list.
How consistent does a newsletter need to be?
Emma wrote one every week for two years. She says that consistency built her confidence as a writer and later became the basis of her book.
What is a clarity call?
In Emma’s description, it is a free half-hour call in which a person brings a problem and Emma helps them get unstuck, with no obligation either way.
Do I need to write a book to attract clients?
Emma’s view is that if you want to position yourself as an expert, a book, or at least a white paper, helps people hear your voice.
How do I know which clients to say no to?
Emma says she said yes to most work early on and became clearer over time about who she serves and who she doesn’t. I note that this clarity is hard to have at the start.
Do I ever finish building my email list?
Emma says no, because people change, drop off and join.
Conclusion
Emma McQueen’s experience shows list building as steady, relationship-led work rather than a one-off push. A weekly newsletter, small events she hosts and, in her description, a no-pressure clarity call all rest on the same idea I point to: invite people to something worth attending, and let the list grow around it.
Her story is one practitioner’s experience, not a formula. Emma is clear that the work never finishes, and that choosing the clients and tactics that suit you matters as much as any single method.
Work with Jane Anderson
To hear Emma’s full story, listen to Episode 67 on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can find Emma on LinkedIn or at emmamcqueen.com.au.
I also run Women with Influence, a growth program for female consultants.
Key Takeaways from Today’s Episode:
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In this segment, Jane Anderson welcomes listeners to "The Jane Anderson Brand New Show," a podcast aimed at experts seeking to enhance their impact, influence, and income. She emphasizes the importance of personal connection in business transactions and introduces the podcast's focus on helping women in corporate consulting to develop practices that serve large organizations. These women often face challenges such as acquiring clients, undervaluing their expertise, and pricing their services. Jane then introduces Emma McQueen, an executive leadership and business coach based in Melbourne, as the special guest for the episode.
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Jane describes Emma McQueen's background as an executive coach for World Vision Australia and her extensive experience in HR and coaching. Emma's coaching approach centers on unlocking clients' potential and achieving results through a focus on strengths. Jane highlights Emma's exceptional qualities, describing her as warm, disciplined, and highly effective. Emma shares insights into her journey, including her transition to full-time business coaching and the development of her program, "Thriving Women," aimed at providing a supportive community for female entrepreneurs. She discusses the challenges of loneliness among women in business and the importance of community and coaching in addressing this issue. Jane and Emma also discuss the challenges of building and sustaining a successful coaching practice, including the need for clarity, consistency, and the ability to say no to opportunities that don't align with one's vision. Emma emphasizes the importance of having systems in place to maintain sustainability and achieve long-term success.
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Emma McQueen discusses her transition away from certain HR-related work and corporate clients that didn't align with her interests and values. She explains her deliberate decision to focus on serving female entrepreneurs and women in leadership roles. Emma emphasizes the importance of clarity in identifying her target market and the satisfaction of being able to say no to corporate engagements that don't resonate with her vision. Jane acknowledges the significance of Emma's journey, highlighting her achievements such as writing the book "Go Getter" and leveraging existing content like newsletters and white papers to create valuable resources. Emma shares insights into her writing process and the impact of her book on her practice, emphasizing the importance of positioning oneself as an expert through publications. She also discusses the strategies she employed to build her email list, including hosting events like "Lunch with the Queen" to connect with potential clients in a non-hustle manner.
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The conversation shifts to the importance of consistency and list building in growing a coaching practice. Emma emphasizes the discipline required to maintain a consistent newsletter and the necessity of continuously building and nurturing an email list. Jane acknowledges the fear some women have regarding list building but highlights Emma's approach, which integrates list building into networking events and other activities in a non-intrusive manner. Emma shares her experience with events like "Lunch with the Queen" and "Business with the Queen" as effective list-building strategies that also provide valuable networking opportunities for attendees. The importance of positioning oneself as an expert and leveraging various channels like newsletters, podcasts, and books to build credibility and attract clients is underscored throughout the conversation.
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Emma discusses her strategies for building authentic connections and growing her email list without overtly focusing on list-building. She highlights events like "Business with the Queen" and virtual networking sessions on Zoom as opportunities for business owners to connect, share experiences, and potentially generate new business. By providing valuable content and fostering a supportive environment, Emma ensures that attendees benefit from the interactions while simultaneously expanding her network and email list. Jane acknowledges Emma's mastery in integrating list-building activities seamlessly into her practice without appearing sales-focused. Emma emphasizes the importance of tailoring strategies to individual strengths and preferences, such as her preference for deeper relationships, which aligns with her approach of nurturing smaller, more intimate groups. Additionally, Emma shares insights into her practice's accessibility, offering free clarity calls to help potential clients address their challenges, regardless of whether they end up working together.
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The conversation shifts to the importance of positioning and implementing the expert influencer methodology to drive practice growth. Emma reflects on her journey from initially lacking clear positioning to establishing herself as an expert in her field over five years. She credits the methodology's focus on consistency and discipline across the four quadrants—educate, outreach, network, and search—for her practice's success. Jane praises Emma's comprehensive implementation of the methodology, highlighting her ability to adapt strategies to her unique style and preferences. Emma emphasizes the ongoing process of refining and optimizing her approach to maximize impact and create opportunities for greater influence. Looking ahead, Emma expresses her commitment to continuous improvement and expanding her impact, including pro bono work with young entrepreneurs. She emphasizes the importance of establishing solid foundations before taking on additional responsibilities, highlighting the need for self-care and commercial viability in business endeavors.
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Jane concludes by inviting Emma to reflect on her entrepreneurial journey and share any insights or lessons learned. Emma expresses a desire to have started earlier and to have had more confidence in herself, particularly during challenging times. She highlights the importance of self-belief and decisiveness in navigating obstacles and implementing change. Emma's reflections underscore the significance of resilience, self-assurance, and continuous learning in entrepreneurship, emphasizing the value of trusting one's instincts and taking decisive action.
Emma reflects on pivotal moments in her entrepreneurial journey, including a conversation with her husband that encouraged her to pursue her own business instead of seeking another corporate HR director position. She acknowledges the importance of self-belief and decisive action, highlighting her initial hesitation and eventual realization that entrepreneurship was the right path for her. Emma expresses gratitude for her husband's support and humorously acknowledges that she may have started her business earlier if not for his encouragement. Despite initial uncertainties and challenges, Emma emphasizes the value of taking the leap into entrepreneurship and discovering the depth of work involved in building a successful business. She encourages others to trust their instincts and embrace the journey, even when the path ahead seems daunting.
Jane concludes the conversation by inviting listeners to connect with Emma and follow her journey. Emma suggests engaging with her on Instagram for an authentic glimpse into her life and values, recognizing that her LinkedIn profile may present a more professional image but that Instagram provides a more personal perspective. Jane expresses gratitude for Emma's contributions to their community and praises her commitment to empowering women in business. She highlights Emma's ongoing impact and encourages listeners to remember her when she achieves further success, emphasizing Emma's unique ability to inspire and support others on their entrepreneurial journeys. Emma reciprocates the appreciation and expresses enjoyment in connecting with Jane, underscoring the importance of meaningful relationships and collaboration in business endeavors.
Full Show Transcript:
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[Speaker 1] (0:09 - 9:55)
Hi there, my name's Jane Anderson and this is the Jane Anderson Brand New Show. It's the podcast for experts who want to have greater impact, influence and income for their businesses and careers. As experts, we know that people buy from people and work with people who they know, who they like and who they trust.
So I'm so glad you're here because it's that time again now to really amplify how you show up in the world. Hi there and welcome to the Jane Anderson Show. I am absolutely thrilled that you are here and to be able to introduce you to our very special guest today.
But before I do that, to share with you a little bit about the podcast. The podcast is part of the Women with Influence series. So I typically work with people and particularly women who are experts in their field and to help them to build a practice that serves global multinationals or large organisations.
So the women we work with are corporate consultants. They typically have had their practices or businesses or worked in the corporate space for around 20 years and they really have this incredible level of expertise and they're typically trying to grow their practices. Some of the challenges that they find are often things like trying to get more clients, not really sure, don't really have a plan, sort of following their nose a little bit.
But often they're undervaluing their expertise, unsure how to price things, they're often good at say designing things, but struggling sometimes to be able to position themselves and to be able to charge what they're worth. So this podcast is all about introducing you to some of the women who I've worked with and in our community and to share some of their stories about what they've done and perhaps my hope is that it will inspire you as well. Today's very special guest is Emma McQueen.
Emma is a Melbourne-based executive leadership and business coach. She's worked at the realm of HR for over 20 years and working with some of Australia's leading organisations to help them develop their team and talent. Emma passionately believes in the success of any business and that it particularly rests in the success of its people.
Emma's coaching has a core focus and it supports her clients to unlock their potential and achieve results. She's Hogan accredited so her approach has a foundation in working with strengths to really make sure that people are taking meaningful actions to achieve their goals. And she really sees the impact that that has on their performance and their overall well-being.
I've worked with Emma for probably four years and I think when I first met Emma, I felt like she was my long lost sister. We're similar and so different in so many ways. But what I love about Emma is that she's incredibly warm, but she has this gift and this gift of discipline.
The ability that she has to make sure that something just gets done is quite extraordinary. She is a real go getter. She's been she has supported me.
I've been in a mastermind with Emma for some time. She's helped me with a few of my programs and and we do certainly help each other out. So it's my absolute pleasure today to be able to introduce Emma because she truly is extraordinary and the work that she has done is exceptional and she is an exceptional human being.
So please welcome Emma McQueen. And I look forward to hearing what your insights are. Please reach out to me if you have insights or questions or comments that you want to share about the podcast.
I'd love to hear from you.
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OK. Hi there, Emma, and welcome.
We are absolutely thrilled to have you with us today. I know how busy you are. So it's so valuable to get this time with you, with the one and only Emma McQueen.
Thank you so much. It's good to be here. Emma, you have been such a valuable part of the Women with Influence community.
You know, you've been with us really early days and you've been not only part of the community, but you've been helped me behind the scenes with crazy things like 500 people at content grades and boot camps and all sorts of crazy stuff we did when COVID hit. Emma, for those who are listening today, we'd love to hear, can you tell us a bit about your practice, your thought leadership and how you started, all that sort of thing? Yeah, cool.
No worries. Yeah, I know that content creation. That was that was mad, Jane, that was mad.
Seven thousand comments or something stupid. Anyway, I was happy to serve, very happy to serve. I have been in business for about five years at full time, I should say.
I had a little side hustle. So I was the executive coach for World Vision Australia. So I coached their executives and I also rolled out their talent and succession and did some other stuff with them globally.
And so my background is HR, but I have been on the Faculty of Women in Leadership Australia for the last 10 years, I suppose, and coaching cohorts of women that came through their program. So they'd sign up for a 12 month program, get allocated a coach. And that was me.
So at any given point, I had a cohort of 35 women going through the program there as well. And so that was kind of my little side hustle. And I've always had a bit of an entrepreneurial flair, I suppose, from selling isopoles in my driveway to selling pieces of art, I don't know, you name it, I've done it.
I love it. And I quite like the hustle. I know hustle gets a bad rap, but I really like that adrenaline side of it.
You are a masterful hustler and you make hustle look good, you make hustle a good name. Oh, thank you. Thank you.
I don't think it has to be all bad, does it? But we so I decided to go step on my own and just look at business coaching as a as its own business, as its own practice. Right.
And so I've done a lot of different things throughout the five years. And now we're at a stage where we've really cemented and landed on some of the things that work well for us. And I love business coaching.
I love coaching in general. I love digging out the potential of people and going, you know what, you've got this. And my clients tell me the feedback is that I am not for the faint hearted.
That's very true. Not for the faint hearted, but I do. And so I will kick butts, but I also do it with some love.
So I think somehow I found that beautiful mixture of when your passion and your purpose meet and then you just aligned. And so I feel very blessed to be in that space. So, Emma, in your practice, so the ladies that you coach, you know, you have got this real balance of this firm, but fair, you know, and and lots of love.
And, you know, you talk a lot about happiness and fulfillment as part of that as well. The ladies that you have. So you have a program called Thriving Women.
And so this is a community of women that you've built that are all female entrepreneurs, all based in Melbourne. And so how does that community work? How did you build all that?
Yeah, it's a good question. We're into our fourth year now. So Thriving Women is a 12 month program for and it's capped.
It's capped at 15. The numbers are kept at 15, very specifically because I feel like 15 is a beautiful number for a group program. And one very wise Jane Anderson told me 15 is a good number.
Let's do that. There you go. Yeah.
20 just gets a bit out of control, right? You can't have one conversation. And I built Thriving Women because I wanted connection and I wanted community and I wanted coaching.
And I basically built it for me, who was starting their own business to have a community of beautiful women around me. And I think because I created it for me, I knew the audience so well. And so I kind of put the bones together for the first year and thought, yeah, I'll give this a crack.
And then I started talking to people about it. And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, holy crap, I better put a bit more effort into this thing and created the bones of it.
And it's evolved over time. But it basically is for women who are happy to fly into Melbourne. So a lot of them are Melbourne based.
We've got someone in Malakuta or we've got somewhere else as well. And they fly in once a month. So it's something is on once a month, which is either a workshop or a dinner or an event of some sort.
And they also get coaching with me. So they spend 12 months as their own community. And we build that community up and they all have their own businesses as well.
So they're all wanting to also get results as well. Right. And so when you launched this, like, how did you know that this would be this sort of community?
Was it that you looked at your database and you said, well, who are the most people following me or was it just a gut instinct? Or how did you know that this program, you know, how did you have that hunch that you thought it might be successful? Yeah, it's a good question.
I did a little bit of research around it. I was already working. I do work with men.
It's the best kept secret. And they all call them. They're all Emma Club, which I think it's very cute.
[Speaker 2] (9:56 - 9:56)
They ring in.
[Speaker 1] (9:56 - 16:26)
They're like, apparently I need to join the Emma Club. All right. Yeah, which is great.
But I had already been doing one on one work with a lot of women. And one of the things that we talked about in their clarity calls, I do a clarity call. You can just have a call with me for half an hour and see if we're the right fit.
One of the things that kept coming up was loneliness. And I thought, oh, that's super interesting. And when I wrote my first white paper, I did a bit of research on loneliness being the next epidemic, etc.
And so when they were talking about that, I'm like, OK, well, if I coach you, you're less lonely by one. But if we're in a group situation of 15, then you're less lonely by 15. And so I think for me was about actually how do we help you get the results that you want in a coaching environment, but also have a community so you feel less lonely so you can ask those questions that you think is silly, which everyone else is thinking.
And if you get those answers and we can create this beautiful community where it's a really safe environment. Right. And Emma, what have been the biggest challenges for you with building this community?
Because I don't think this sort of comes easily. I mean, you make it look super easy. We watch your Instagram and everything looks so light and fun and effortless.
And, you know, you just breeze through it like you, you know, you're sipping cocktails or pina coladas, you know, through the whole thing. Is that right? Or I mean, there's a lot of pink in there, too.
I think it starts to look effortless when you've got good systems in place. But I don't think I'm I don't feel like it's always effortless. There's some times where you think, oh, this is this is just a bit too easy.
And isn't that lovely? But that doesn't last. And I think in my first year, my first year, I worked really hard to work on being consistent with my newsletter, consistent with my branding, consistent with everything that I could possibly think of on showing up to a degree where my friends would go, you're everywhere.
And I'm like, oh, yeah, the positioning is working. But I just kept that to myself. Right.
Because no one wants to know that. But I think I worked so much that my husband just went, you've had an amazing year, but really, is it sustainable? And so you have to then systematize because when you first start, let's be honest, you say yes to work.
And then a year or two and you're like, I don't even like this work. What am I doing? And you start to get much more clear about what it is.
And so now we're very clear about who we serve and who we don't serve. Right. And I think having that clarity also helps.
But I don't think you can have that clarity when you first start your business. I think you try a couple of things. You work out what's in your wheelhouse, what you're passionate about, and then you go, OK, can I actually charge for that?
Is someone going to pay for that? Yes. A classic example is everyone says to me all the time, excuse me, Emma, can you just run a retreat, just a standalone retreat?
And I go back to them, I go, what would you pay for a standalone retreat? And when you start to talk about the dollars and what it actually costs to run a retreat, you see them back away pretty quickly. And that happens to a lot of my clients.
Everyone, everyone told me this was a great idea. Yeah. But did anyone put their money where their mouth is?
And that's really frustrating for my clients. I think I think it's probably frustrating for anyone who's sitting there thinking they've got this great idea and that people are giving them encouragement, but it doesn't translate to cash. Yes.
Yeah. Because it's all like, yeah, you should do that. That would be great.
That would be great. I'm going to go do this. But yeah, that would be great.
You talk about what you had to say no to or what what you had to be clear about who you serve and who you don't. What have you had to say no to to grow your practice? Well, because my background is HR, I can get sucked into lots of HR stuff and I don't love it.
I don't love it. I got when I first started, I did quite a lot of mediation. So that's two parties who aren't getting along.
You get them in a room, you work out what the differences are, you work out what the similarities are, you do some other bits and pieces and then hopefully it builds the relationship back up. I hated that work. I was like, I'm not doing this again.
And then. So it's the HR work that we started saying no to. And it was certain then certain kind of clients that just didn't align.
So, you know, you know, when you're talking to someone and for me, it was stiff corporates. I'm just like, I'm not into that. And they're like, come and chat to our people.
And then they all rock up in suits and you think, no, that's just not it's not my thing anymore. And it's great for other people, but it's just not my thing. So we got really deliberate about actually our target market is women who have their own business and normally a service based business or women who are in leadership roles and working one on one with them.
And then last year we decided that we wouldn't do any more training and development programs in the corporate space. So there's been a couple of clients that have been ongoing and that's been excellent. But we're not active.
We're actively saying no to corporate gigs now, which is lovely. It's lovely to be able to be in that position to make that choice. Yeah, that's I mean, there's a lot of work that's gone into getting to that point.
Yes. And we're not talking, you know, small deals with corporate that you've had to say no to. Like these are multiple six figure deals that have been sitting there.
Yes, we want Emma to do them. We're ready to sign the check. Yes.
You know, it's really tempting. Yes. I love what you've done is that what you've used that that's been part of your growth and even getting to a point where you're going, OK, we actually don't need to do that anymore.
Our business to business client is actually a female entrepreneur. And now knowing, you know, they've generally been in their business a couple of years, they'll generally be service based business. Some might be consultants, some might be photographers, some might have beauty businesses, some might have all sorts of sort of service based type firms.
And and they could be growing to two million dollar, two, three, five, ten. You've got that scope that you can take them as far as they really need to so they can do the group program and they can do one on one.
[Speaker 2] (16:26 - 16:26)
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (16:27 - 20:57)
Yeah. And Emma, based on this journey, amazing, amazing journey, like I'm just in awe of you as everybody else, whoever you say, do you know Emma McQueen? Oh, my God.
Yes. Anyone else goes, she's freaking amazing. There's been some parts of your practice that you've done, like you've written an amazing book, which is called Go Getter, which ties in with your thriving women program.
You know, Raising Mojo, Shift Your Mindset and Thrive. So you've written a fantastic book. Yeah.
And you wrote that fairly quickly as part of the process that we do. Is that right? You did that in a couple of days.
You published it, but in terms of writing it. Yeah. Yeah, we took so I decided to write a book, but I also didn't feel like I was a very good writer.
And so I decided I needed to teach myself to write. So I write a newsletter a week for two years. And that gave me the confidence to then go, OK, I've got something to say because I don't know about you, Jane, but when I first I've got nothing to say, nothing to say.
What could I possibly contribute? Yeah, exactly. And so I just proved to myself, actually, consistency over time would be really helpful in this.
And then, yes, I spent two days with you, which is amazing and kick the book out. And I hadn't quite finished the book on our final by the time we finished. So I went back to my hotel room and I did not allow myself to order pizza, which is my reward until I had finished that dang book.
And so so basically I pulled the book together in two days. It was it was some stories of other things that I had done, but I noticed that all my writing was very similar and I had already written a white paper which kind of leveraged, you know, leveraged that I could leverage off for the book. And so I had written a white paper and I was very consistent with my newsletters.
But pulling it all together in a book and just making that work was just extraordinary. And what difference did that book make to your practice? What changed?
Do you know what? I know lots of people who write books and then nothing happens. And I was not prepared to be one of those people.
And so we use Sylvia BookPod to to publish and pack. And we tweaked a few different things, because for those of you thinking about writing a book, when you take it to a publisher or a printing house, normally all of the information from people who buy the book go there. And I didn't want that to happen.
So I knew so we created my web person was amazing. She created a front end that looks like their back that was their back end so that I can could connect with those people that bought my book. And it sounds very strategic now.
It wasn't. I was just nosy and wanted to know who was buying the book and be able to follow up. But that has been amazing.
And we sold a lot of books. We sold a lot of books. Women really want to hear about this.
And I think the other thing, the thing that's just happened is it's just been released on Audible. So I know you heard it here first. Wow.
Well done. That's fantastic. That's you know, the so many more people are listening to audio books now.
That's that's terrific. So good. Yeah, so good.
So I just think if you're going to write a book, if you want to position yourself as an expert in the space, then you've got to write a book or you've at least got to have a white paper, you know, something that that people can just hear your voice. So I was talking to a potential client. I still have you got my book.
I'll send you a copy of my book. And she read it over the weekend and she came back. She goes, I loved your book and I want to work with you.
And it was just so like, isn't that easy? Yeah, because if people can get a feel for your vibe, it's the same with the podcast. And now it's the same with Audible.
And in Audible, there's a few extra stories because we released the book a year before and then we did the Audible and so and I narrate the book. So yeah, it's really exciting, but definitely worth it from a positioning perspective. Yeah.
And amazing. What I love about what you've done is to one is realizing that, you know, doing the importance of doing a newsletter. First of all, the journey of that and having the confidence, like that it built your confidence with the writing.
[Speaker 2] (20:58 - 20:58)
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (20:58 - 27:14)
And saying to use consistency. The big thing I'm hearing is consistency and showing up. And you do that in spades.
Absolutely. Then moving, going, okay, I've gone in, go over to a book. So you and then you were resourceful.
You pulled out all those pieces of, okay, I've got a white paper. I've got two years worth of newsletters here. You're pulling together all these things.
And then being able to come up with that. And you didn't order pizza until you had it done. So this woman has, if you haven't met Emma, and she does say this, is that she says, I have been blessed with the gift of discipline.
And you most certainly have. I think if we could all have a tenth of the discipline that you have, this country's productivity would go through the roof. Oh, look, I think I have been gifted the gift of discipline.
I think the only other thing that I would say about the newsletter is, and what's made a difference is you got to build your list. It's as simple as that, right? And I think if you can write as many newsletters as you like, but if no one's reading them, what's the point, right?
And I think that was hard for me to wrap my head around in the first instance. I'm like, how am I going to build the list? And we spend a lot of time trying to work out how you build a list, what you do, yada, yada, yada, who wants to hear from you?
I got so engrossed in all the detail at some point, I had to just step back from that. But you got to keep building your list. And even five years on, I say to people, I still got to build my list.
It never stops because people evolve, people change, people drop off, people come on. But you got to keep doing building your list. And I think that's super important for people to know.
And when my clients say to me, I don't want to build a list. Well, we really unpack that. Yeah, buckle up.
Let's put another cup of coffee on and talk about that one. And you're right, Emma, I think for those that are two to three years into their businesses or practices in our case, so we have mostly women who are selling to organisations or like you, where in your case you were doing that and then you really narrowed into women, female entrepreneurs. But the discipline of list, you know, just rain, hail, or shine.
It's not sexy. It's not pretty. It's just the basic meat and potatoes stuff that just happens every day.
And it's one of those things, I think, when you hit two to three years in because you probably had a few wins. You've had people go, oh my God! Yeah!
You started your business. Let's support you. Let's get some things done.
And, you know, you've got that momentum. But then you realise that, oh, something's changed for those people. Oh, I need more clients.
Oh, now I realise that my business isn't growing and I'm hitting a wall. And the issue is, is that it's actually the pipeline, you know, the talent, the pipeline of not talent, the pipeline of clients. I'm in HR world.
Is that, like you said, is that over time is that we do lose people. There's a natural attrition rate that comes off. And we know that, you know, around 50% of, well, people who are buying from you, they're going to buy generally if they've come, they'll generally come off that list and they'll typically spend about 50% more than anybody else.
So whilst we go, oh, I can pump content, content's got to lead to list, doesn't it? And then we can have those conversations. So it's a really powerful insight.
And I think that's what we see with a lot of women that come in the communities that that's the number one thing that is missing that discipline of list building. What have you found as part of, because you've implemented a lot of things, like out of the expert influence and methodology, like, you know, like one is the newsletter's got to go out. You've got things like doing webcasts.
So you have, can you, are you happy to share some of the things that you've done to build list? Because what I think that you do is, I think what most people I find, particularly women, is that they're scared of the obviousness of looking to build a list. And, you know, like, oh, I don't want to be one of those people.
But the way you do it is that it's not obvious. It doesn't, and we don't have to make it obvious. I'll please sign up for my newsletter.
Is that, are you happy to share some of the things that you do? Because it's non-hustly and yet it's hustle. Yes.
Well, and I think, so I want to go back to positioning, but let me tell this story first. But I think when I first started, so my last name is McQueen. It's my married name.
I'm very blessed to have this name. I've even had to have a conversation with my husband and say, hey, if we get divorced, I'm going to have to keep going. I love that.
Anyway, so we use my name a lot of things. The podcast is Tea with the Queen. We've got Business with the Queen.
So we run a lot of events. When I first started, I get a lot of calls to say, can I pick your brain? And I thought, you know what?
Let's let, yes, you can pick my brain, but also let's pick some other women's brains. So I put together for two years Lunch with the Queen. It was capped at 10 women and they could come along, have lunch for two hours.
It cost them whatever the cost of lunch was. And I met another 10 women and we kicked ideas around. And it was a great list building activity because it got traction.
And I think I ran one for Christmas one year and there was 40 women in the room and it was amazing. Wow. So that was super simple.
Now, thanks to COVID, we do something called Business with the Queen, which is a networking event. No one wants to network. No women love to network that I have met.
So we do it for 90 minutes on Zoom and it's a super safe space. We do some content. The next one that's coming up is Taria Pitts going to be on there chatting with us.
Wow. I know, right? And so they come along.
They get 90 minutes of just interaction because it's lonely being a business owner. And hopefully, they walk away with some new buddies and they walk away with some new business. And I build my list.
It's like win-win-win. Everyone wins. Everyone wins.
So we do stuff like that as well. And I think that helps build the list.
[Speaker 2] (27:15 - 27:15)
Definitely.
[Speaker 1] (27:16 - 29:27)
Spot on. Yeah. And what I love about that is there's no language in any of that is, hey, I'm trying to build my list.
Do you want to come to this thing? It's like, hey, we're going to put this lunch on. We're going to put this experience on.
It's business with the queen. We're going to have this. Here's all the value that you're going to get.
And you know, and I think that that's the beauty of it is that you've really mastered that elegance of, you know, Michael Port who wrote book yourself solid saying always have something to invite people to. And I think that's, you know, we create it. And I love that.
You know, there's so many different things that you could do. And you sort of worked out what is the right thing for you. And yeah, I think that's the big thing too.
Right. People try and sometimes people go, oh, that's working well. So I'll just replicate that.
But that's not your style. You know, like lunch with the queen is perfect because I'm one of my strength is related. I like deeper relationships, which is also why I don't work with anyone for less than 12 months.
I don't want to just be on two sessions with you and then you go away. I don't want that. I actually want a relationship with you.
So that's why lunch with the queen works because I want a relationship with that person. But then if there's someone else who doesn't, then that's not the right thing for them. Go to a masterclass or a webinar or webcast, whatever it is.
But I also, I knew that the interaction that people have with me is much better when it's in a smaller group. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. And that's sort of the experience to start off with you is what that experience is going to be like. You know, I think it's hard when you go to these big events and you go, oh, you know, and then you go, oh, but hang on.
I need some intimacy with this person. I need some time. And I'm not going to.
How do you go from that to somebody who's got the patience to sit with me for 15 minutes to try and unpack my problem? So there's a disconnect, but there's a parallel and the customer journey and there's no disconnect in the promise.
[Speaker 2] (29:27 - 29:28)
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (29:28 - 31:48)
Right. That's the experience I'm going to have with Emma that whole time. And that's also why we do the clarity call because we offer a clarity call.
So that's just half an hour with me. And normally people will bring a problem and we'll help them get unstuck. Now, regardless of whether they're going to work with me or not, that's irrelevant to me.
What is relevant is you bring the problem, we'll solve it together. If you like that style, we'll work together. If you don't like that style, we won't.
There's no pressure. Yeah. So again, having something to invite people to, there's the accessibility.
-
What I love about that is, you know, it's quite often people are hard to connect with, like they're, you know, so people can go on your website, book in a meeting with you and bam, I'm in and, you know, and they're getting great value in half an hour. Because that can be quite transformational, even just someone who's got years of experience to go, yep, here's where you're going wrong. Here's what I would advise.
And do you want some help or not? Either way. And equally, I guess you get to work out because you could come off that call and go, okay, guess what?
No way. Here's someone else who I think would be a better fit for you as well. So you're able to get a sense of them, I guess too.
Yeah, totally. And it's knowing that. It's getting off the phone and going.
So I'm all for follow-up, right? And so I can't let it go until I know the answer. Right.
But when someone's not a great fit, I also need to tell them that because I don't want them to think she's not following up because I don't feel like that's professional. I think it's our jobs to follow up. And so I'll send them an email or I'll call them.
I normally call them and just say, hey, just wanted to let you know, great, you know, half an hour together. What I realized, we're probably not in alignment together. Right.
We're not the right fit. I might give you some other coaches to speak to if that's what you'd like, or here's who I recommend. And I think that's a really clean way of going.
Yeah, we're not going to work together and that's okay. Absolutely. And, you know, that's what builds trust and it builds your reputation as an expert and in your space.
And it's a testament to where you've come in your practice too is that you don't need to, you know, work through the pain of that for 12 months.
[Speaker 2] (31:48 - 31:49)
Exactly.
[Speaker 1] (31:49 - 37:56)
Because imagine if you take on, we all know it. We've all done it. We've taken on the wrong person.
And for the next 12 months, they do our head in. Yeah, right. So we don't want any of that.
Exactly. No, thank you. We've done our apprenticeships.
Yes. And Emma, is there anything else out of like, with the expert team, what's the methodology and the approach that we take with building your practice? We talk about, you know, those leads, we talked about social media, we talk about speaking or busking out or if you're, you know, if you're, in your case, you've done your lunches, which make perfect sense.
There's things like SEO and we get all those four quadrants working. But in your practice, has there been anything else that you've found that's been particularly valuable or perhaps a positioning approach that you've taken to be able to build your practice that's made an impact for you? You know what?
The expert influencer, the quadrants was so helpful for me to just make sure that I had everything kind of ticked off. And if I didn't, you know, it was in train and there was a process happening or it was in the system. I think the big thing, and I wanted to get back to this, the big thing about positioning is when you don't have anyone, so I'll give you some live examples.
You don't, I had no positioning. So I'd bring people and go, hey, it's Emma McQueen. They'd be like, who?
Right. My name's Emma McQueen. Right?
Yeah, you know that person, that's the worst feeling, is it? We were at this thing. Yeah, we were gonna have a coffee together.
They're like, no, I don't remember. This is awkward. Now, five years later, I'm like, hi, this is Emma McQueen.
They're like, pardon? It's actually the queen? And I'm like, and it's so interesting that in five years, you can go from who the heck are you?
To, oh my goodness, you're calling me? Why are you calling me? And that's the power of positioning.
It's the power of the quadrants, right? Making sure that you're spending quality time in each of the quadrants and making sure that you're actually just getting the work done without the excuses, without the rigmarole, simply and quickly and with discipline. And that's the power of positioning.
That's what I think anyway. Yeah, that's so powerful. And you have been so, I mean, you're like the poster child for being able to implement on each of those.
If you haven't watched Emma, you know, go and have a look. You'll be able to see the dynamics of those four quadrants that we talk about in the methodology. She's doing a newsletter, jump on, you know, join Emma's newsletter, see the great stuff that she sends through.
She's doing podcasts and content, which is over in the educate quadrant. In the bottom left quadrant, which is around the awareness quadrant, she's got her business with the queen. And she's got, also you've got other things like other outreach that goes on, even in Instagram and specific people that you're noticing.
And then the bottom right quadrant, which is the network and search, which is the thanking for referral partners. You've got some of that in place. And then you've got your SEO, LinkedIn is optimized.
Emma is like, she's got every aspect of the model ticked. And it's not that you have to have every single part of the model ticked. It's more making a conscious choice about where you are in your practice.
Because what I think is really interesting for you is you choose not to speak. You don't have a speaking part of your practice. So I think that's super valuable is that even though speaking is on there, but your version of speaking in how you build this is Emma's lunch with the queen.
So it'll be with the queen. So it's working out your version of that. So I love that you've taken it and worked out, well, what's the Emma McQueen version of this?
Even if it, yeah, the concept is speaking, but you go, I don't want to speak at conferences. No, thanks. We go, great.
There you go. So it does the same thing. So yeah, I think work out your version.
Yeah, it's my version. And I'm all for simplifying things, right? I'm a mum of three.
I've got a busy household going on as well. I've got limited time. Like where am I going to invest my time to get the biggest bang for buck?
And let me say, I might have the four quadrants like down pat now, but it wasn't always the case, right? I really peddled very hard that first year to get some of the foundations in place. And sometimes even when you've got the foundations in place, you need to throw it all back up and go, okay, let's start again.
And that's okay as well, but at least you got to got the foundations going. So it's been super helpful for me. So good, Emma.
So what's next for you? Global domination is on track. Maybe global domination, I don't know.
You know what? The thing for me is I just want to get better and level up at what I'm doing. And I think we've got the, for us, we've got some solid revenue streams in place now.
We know exactly what we're doing. We know exactly who we work with. Now we just have to have impact that's bigger than what we've had.
And so to me, that's a level up. So what are we doing? What are those one, you know, James Clear, what are those one percenters that we're doing just to hook that up a little bit and to create more impact?
The other thing is now I'm at the position I'm at. I'm doing a lot of pro bono work with young entrepreneurs. And so, and I'm talking 15, 16 year old girls who are starting their own businesses and just need someone to help them, right?
And so I love that work. And because of where I am at now, I can take on more of that stuff, which is just delightful. And how often do we see too many women in business taking on those things way too early and suffering the consequences of that?
So you can get to that, we'll get there, but let's put the oxygen mask on first and look after yourself because, you know, if you're going to teach other people how to build a business, we're going to get yours built first. That's exactly right. But that's been a passion of mine since I started.
I knew that I would do that. I knew you'd get there.
[Speaker 2] (37:57 - 37:57)
Yeah, yeah.
[Speaker 1] (37:57 - 41:01)
It just had to be that you've got to get the systems in place and like you said, the foundations in place. Otherwise you end up doing all the volunteering and you don't have a commercial business. And no one wants that.
No, no. Yeah, yeah. Oh, Emma, is that if you were reflecting back to when you started and, you know, if there's anything that you wish you had done differently, if you had your time again, what might it be?
I would probably start earlier and stop. I wouldn't doubt myself as much. Right.
So when there was a stack of changes going through World Vision and I came home to my husband and I said, here are the changes because I have to help implement them in the HR area. And I said, I don't want any of those jobs. And he's like, okay, I'm like, maybe I'll just go get another HR director job somewhere.
And he just looked at me and he's like, for five years, I've heard you bang on about having your own business. Don't you think it's time? And I'm like, yes, it is time.
Thank you very much. And we joked about that. We just celebrated 10 years married and we joked about that when we were having dinner.
And I said, I probably wouldn't have done it unless you'd said, hello, what are you doing? So I probably would have done it earlier, to be honest. And backed myself a bit earlier and maybe started doing the work earlier.
Although I don't know what the, I probably didn't know what the work was, really. It wasn't until I finished, I started and I went, holy dooly, there's so much to do. I wish I'd started this earlier.
But you don't know that until you start. And Emma, in terms of where you would like people to go, if they want to follow you, see your journey and all this great stuff that you're doing, is it jump onto the website? Is that where you want them to go?
Where would you like people to go? Yeah, I think, well, if you want a real view of what I, who I am, jump on my Instagram, which is Emma Armachoyne and connect with me there because I think that's, I have corporate clients who look at my LinkedIn and my LinkedIn is very lovely. It's all very professional, but then they stalk me on Instagram anyway.
And I think, oh, I'm just going to send them to Instagram. Great. Thank you so much for being part of the show today, Emma, and being part of our community.
We are so grateful. You have been so generous in our community from content creation bootcamps to our quarterly planning days. You know, we are in awe of your success and we stand by going, just remember us when you're famous, Emma.
You're already on the track of fame. You're doing an amazing job. But, and most importantly is that you're making the biggest difference to women and helping them become, you know, not only successful in their businesses, but, you know, having that independence and security for their futures.
So you are, you know, you're one in a million. So thank you so much for jumping on today. Oh, thank you, my friend.
It's been lovely to chat with you, even if it's all official. I know we're actually doing work in this last 45 minutes. Isn't that funny?
No, I'm good. All right. Thanks again, Emma.
Thanks, Jane.
