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Most leaders are taught to treat challenges as problems to be solved. Gather the facts, weigh the options, pick the best solution, move on.
That approach works well for complicated issues, the kind with a clear answer, even if it takes expertise to find it. But a lot of what leaders actually face today doesn't fit that mould. Restructures, burnout, culture change, team dysfunction: these are complex challenges. They don't have a single right answer, and they rarely stay solved.
Dr Desley Lodwick has spent more than two decades working with executives, leaders and managers on exactly this distinction. A former managing director of a global IT company, she left the corporate world in 2003 to study why so many capable people were struggling in their roles, not from a lack of skill, but from a lack of support for the kind of thinking complexity demands.
That research became a PhD in contextualist coaching, and eventually a coaching model of her own: cohort coaching. It's a structured, research-backed approach that pairs two coaches with a small group of leaders over several months, built specifically to help people make progress on challenges that can't simply be solved.
This article breaks down what cohort coaching is, why it uses two coaches instead of one, and how it connects to a broader idea Dr Lodwick has spent her career exploring: adult development theory, and what it means for how leaders make sense of themselves, their work and their world.
What Is Cohort Coaching?
Cohort coaching is a coaching model developed by Dr Desley Lodwick in which two coaches work with a small group of around five people on their real workplace challenges, meeting for three hours every three to four weeks over a minimum of six months.
It grew out of a gap Dr Lodwick noticed in her own coaching practice. Individual coaching could help people cope and grow, but it rarely made a dent in the organisational systems and culture those people worked within. As she put it, coaches were "supporting their development" but "weren't really making much of an input into organisational culture."
Cohort coaching was her answer to that gap: a way to work with individuals and the systemic patterns they're part of, at the same time.
How It Differs From Group Coaching
On the surface, cohort coaching can sound similar to group coaching. Both involve multiple participants working with a coach at once. But Dr Lodwick is clear that the resemblance is only surface-level.
Group coaching, as it's typically practised, tends to focus on individual goals within a shared setting. Cohort coaching is built around something different: helping the group make sense of complexity together, and supporting each person's development as an adult, not just as a professional working through a task list.
The Structure: Two Coaches, Five Participants, Six Months
The format is deliberate. Five participants is small enough for real depth, large enough to surface a range of perspectives. Three-hour sessions every three to four weeks give enough space for substantial work without becoming unsustainable for busy leaders.
The six-month minimum matters more than it might seem. According to Dr Lodwick, the real organisational issues, the ones that need systemic attention rather than individual fixing, often don't surface until around the third session. Before that point, participants are still working through their own individual challenges.
The Dance Floor and the Balcony: Why Two Coaches Work Better Than One
One of the more distinctive features of cohort coaching is the use of two coaches rather than one. Dr Lodwick explains the logic through a simple image: the dance floor and the balcony.
At any given moment, one coach is "on the dance floor," actively working with whoever is speaking, asking what's happening, what they've tried, what's getting in the way. The other coach is "on the balcony," watching how the whole group, including the coach on the dance floor, is making sense of what's being discussed.
A single coach can, in theory, move between both positions. But with five participants bringing five different sets of issues, doing both well at once is difficult. Two coaches make it possible to stay fully present in the conversation while also tracking the bigger picture of how the group is processing it.
That combination, individual attention plus systemic observation, is what allows cohort coaching to work with complexity rather than just individual problems.
Complex vs. Complicated: Why Most Leadership Challenges Can't Be "Solved"
A complicated problem has a right answer that expertise can find. A complex challenge doesn't have a fixed solution; it requires ongoing sense-making, and progress is made through learning and adapting rather than solving.
This distinction sits at the centre of Dr Lodwick's work. Many leaders, she's found, approach leadership itself as a problem to be solved. But most of what they're actually facing is complex: team dynamics, cultural shifts, personal identity at work, organisational change. These issues can be understood and worked through, but they can't be permanently fixed with a single decision.
Dr Lodwick's forthcoming book captures the idea in its working title: Stop Solving Problems and Start Making Progress. The shift she's describing is about giving up the expectation of prediction and control, and instead getting better at "learning how to learn your way forward."
That reframe tends to relieve pressure rather than add to it. Leaders who've been quietly blaming themselves for not "solving" something that was never solvable in the first place often find real relief in understanding the distinction.
Adult Development Theory and Leadership Effectiveness
Adult development theory holds that people continue to develop new stages of thinking and sense-making well into adulthood, and that a person's stage of development, not just their knowledge or experience, shapes how effectively they can lead.
Dr Lodwick points to research going back decades showing a correlation between leadership effectiveness and a person's stage of adult development, essentially, their capacity to make sense of complexity. This body of thinking builds on Robert Kegan's constructive-developmental theory, developed at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, which describes how adults' meaning-making capacity continues to grow across distinct stages well beyond childhood.
Sense-Making Over Expertise
This is where cohort coaching diverges most clearly from conventional coaching or training models. Most coaching programs are built around competencies: what a person knows and can do. Cohort coaching is built around development: who a person is becoming, and how they make sense of themselves and the world around them. This developmental focus also reflects broader standards in the profession, including the International Coaching Federation's core competencies, which emphasise ongoing growth over fixed expertise.
In practice, this doesn't look like academic theory. It shows up in the questions asked during a session, and how participants connect those questions back to what they're actually facing day to day. As Dr Lodwick notes, unless the work connects to what people are living through in real time, it doesn't make much difference.
One pattern she's observed repeatedly: people tend to blame themselves for what they see as personal shortcomings in their leadership, when the real issue often sits at a systemic level, in how organisations and teams are structured, not in any individual failing.
The Midlife Career Transition (and the "Glass Cliff")
Many of Dr Lodwick's clients arrive at a similar point in their careers: successful, accomplished and unexpectedly empty. Having achieved what they set out to achieve, they're left asking, "What do I do now?"
Adult development theory, she's found, helps people make sense of this midlife career transition, not as a crisis, but as a genuine developmental stage. It's a period many people go through, often without a framework for understanding it.
Dr Lodwick describes it through another image: standing at the edge of a cliff, facing a chasm, uncertain whether there's a safety net underneath. It's a variation on the more familiar "glass ceiling," a glass cliff, where the challenge isn't getting promoted, but stepping into the unknown of what comes next.
Why This Matters More for Women in Senior Roles
This transition shows up often among senior women considering a move out of corporate life, toward consulting, coaching or building something of their own. For women weighing that step, executive coaching for women built around this kind of developmental thinking can make the transition far less isolating.
Dr Lodwick's view is that navigating it well depends heavily on the people around you: those who are curious, optimistic about future possibilities, and motivated by making a genuine difference rather than personal recognition.
Her own career reflects this shift. Early on, her practice grew through repeat business and word of mouth. Over time, it evolved into something oriented around a larger purpose, contributing to a body of work bigger than any one client relationship.
Moving Past "Overwhelmed": Naming Burnout in Leadership
One observation from Dr Lodwick's recent work is subtle but telling: many of the leaders she works with are heading toward burnout, but very few will use that word. Instead, they describe themselves as "overwhelmed."
She connects this to a broader pattern: a tendency to focus on tasks and dehumanise ourselves in the process, rather than attend to our own wellbeing. This pattern is borne out in the data too; Beyond Blue's research on workplace burnout found burnout is now widespread among Australian workers, driven by cost-of-living pressures, family demands and increased workloads.
Dr Lodwick also points to the growing body of science on the nervous system, the parasympathetic and sympathetic systems, the vagus nerve, as offering real, practical insight into how people can better manage this pressure. For anyone wanting to check in on where they sit, Beyond Blue's burnout check-in tool is a useful starting point.
Recognising the pattern, even before someone is ready to name it as burnout, is often where meaningful change starts. Dr Mel Kettle explores a related version of this in her conversation on navigating burnout and midlife pressures at work.
Frequently Asked Questions
What is cohort coaching?
Cohort coaching is a group coaching model developed by Dr Desley Lodwick that pairs two coaches with around five participants, focused on real workplace challenges and supported by adult development theory.
How is cohort coaching different from group coaching?
Group coaching typically centres on individual goals within a shared setting. Cohort coaching focuses on collective sense-making of complexity and supports each participant's broader development, not just task-based progress.
Why does cohort coaching use two coaches instead of one?
Two coaches allow one to stay actively engaged in the conversation ("the dance floor") while the other observes group dynamics ("the balcony"), a combination that's difficult for a single coach to manage with five participants at once.
What's the difference between a complicated problem and a complex challenge?
A complicated problem has a right answer that expertise can uncover. A complex challenge has no fixed solution and requires ongoing learning, adaptation and sense-making rather than a one-time fix.
What is adult development theory in leadership?
It's the idea that people continue developing new stages of thinking throughout adulthood, and that a leader's stage of development, their capacity to make sense of complexity, significantly shapes their effectiveness.
How long does a cohort coaching program typically run?
Sessions run for three hours every three to four weeks, over a minimum of six months. According to Dr Lodwick, the deeper systemic issues a group is facing often don't surface until around the third session.
Who is cohort coaching best suited for?
It tends to suit leaders and teams facing complex, systemic challenges rather than straightforward problems, including those navigating organisational change, culture shifts or their own leadership transition.
Conclusion
Dr Desley Lodwick's work offers a genuinely different lens on leadership development, one built less around expertise and more around how people make sense of themselves, their teams and the complexity they're operating in.
Cohort coaching is the clearest expression of that thinking: a structured, research-backed model that treats leadership challenges as things to be understood and progressed, not simply solved. For leaders feeling stuck, overwhelmed or quietly questioning what comes next, that reframe alone can be the beginning of real movement.
Work with Jane Anderson
To learn more about Dr Lodwick's work, read her white paper at desleylodwick.com.
For more on facilitation-based approaches to leadership development, see Jacinta Cubis on facilitator vs trainer, or explore how leaders make decisions under complexity with Samantha Rush.
If you're a senior woman considering your own step into thought leadership, discover how Jane Anderson's Women with Influence program supports that transition.
Key Takeaways from Today’s Episode:
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In this segment, Jane Anderson introduces her podcast, the Jane Anderson Brand New Show, targeting experts who seek to enhance their impact, influence, and income in their businesses or careers. She emphasizes the importance of personal connection in business transactions and the significance of how individuals present themselves to the world. Jane introduces her guest, Dr. Desley Ludwig, a professional coach and leadership development expert with over 20 years of experience. Desley's background includes roles such as managing director of a global IT company and founder of a learning company. She is recognized for her innovative coaching methodology and her ability to inspire, inform, and facilitate action. Desley's expertise lies in understanding adult development theory and helping executives and leaders find satisfaction in their work. The segment ends with Desley's introduction and acknowledgment of being pleased to join the podcast.
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Jane commends Desley on her remarkable practice and inquires about her journey and the development of her personal brand. Desley reflects on her age and the wisdom that comes with it, expressing satisfaction in helping others realize their potential. She discusses her transition from executive roles to coaching, driven by a desire to address organizational challenges and support individual growth. Desley highlights the limitations of traditional coaching in effecting systemic change, leading her to pursue a PhD in Contextualist Coaching for Complex Times. She introduces the concept of cohort coaching, a method involving two coaches working with small groups to address real-life work issues. Desley emphasizes the importance of understanding complexity and shifting focus from problem-solving to progress-making.
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Desley recounts her transition from executive roles to coaching, prompted by a desire to explore organizational challenges and support individual growth. She acknowledges the limitations of traditional coaching in effecting systemic change, leading her to pursue a PhD in Contextualist Coaching for Complex Times. Desley introduces cohort coaching, a method involving two coaches working with small groups to address real-life work issues. She emphasizes the importance of understanding complexity and shifting focus from problem-solving to progress-making.
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Desley explains the effectiveness of cohort coaching, attributing its success to the dual perspectives offered by two coaches. She contrasts it with traditional group coaching, highlighting its focus on making sense of complexity and supporting adult development. Jane and Desley discuss the challenges faced by women transitioning from corporate life and the role of adult developmental theory in helping individuals navigate this period of transition. Desley emphasizes the importance of surrounding oneself with supportive and optimistic individuals during times of uncertainty.
The conversation delves deeper into the challenges faced by individuals, particularly women, transitioning from corporate life to pursuing their own thought leadership practices. Desley highlights the role of adult developmental theory in helping individuals make sense of their experiences and navigate periods of transition. She discusses the concept of a "glass cliff" and emphasizes the importance of surrounding oneself with supportive peers who share an optimistic outlook on personal growth and making a difference in the world.
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Desley discusses the diversity of clients she works with, ranging from organizations such as governments, universities, and research institutes to individuals in various industries including academia, STEM, and engineering. She elaborates on the programs she delivers, including workshops, executive coaching (both individual and cohort), and a contextualist coaching development program for aspiring coaches. Desley emphasizes her focus on development rather than competencies, aiming to help individuals make sense of themselves and the world around them.
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Desley delves into the concept of sensemaking in coaching, distinguishing it from expertise by highlighting its focus on personal identity and how individuals perceive and interpret the world. She links leadership effectiveness to the stage of adult development, underscoring the importance of understanding one's sensemaking capacity. Desley emphasizes the significance of relating coaching interventions to individuals' everyday challenges and feelings to foster progress and optimism.
Jane and Desley discuss the challenges faced by leaders in remote workplaces post-COVID, including engaging team members and managing uncertainty. Desley emphasizes the importance of making small changes in a volatile environment and the need for leaders to prioritize self-care amidst overwhelming demands. She integrates scientific insights on the nervous system to promote resilience and well-being in the face of workplace challenges.
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Desley reflects on her journey of growth, emphasizing the transformative impact of her PhD research on her practice and personal identity. She encourages critical reflection on existing paradigms and a deep dive into research to inform professional development. Desley shares her transition from focusing on repeat business to a broader vision of supporting individuals in living fulfilling work lives. She expresses gratitude for the support received and anticipates continued growth in reaching a larger audience.
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Desley shares insights gained from her experiences, including challenges faced as a female in the IT industry and the value of embracing life's journey without regrets. She highlights the importance of resilience and optimism in navigating professional and personal challenges. Desley envisions a future focused on amplifying midlife potential to address global challenges and promote individual and societal well-being.
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Jane and Desley discuss the potential of midlife as a transformative stage and the importance of cultivating a sense of purpose and well-being. Desley outlines her legacy aspirations, emphasizing the need to support individuals in living their best lives and raising children to be healthy and resilient. She underscores the urgency of addressing global challenges and fostering a sense of collective responsibility for future generations.
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Jane acknowledges Desley's remarkable contributions and the profound impact she has on her clients and colleagues. She highlights Desley's role as a leading light in her field and an inspiration for women seeking to make a difference. Jane emphasizes Desley's innovation and the notion that age is not a barrier to success, citing examples of women finding success later in life. Desley's warmth, kindness, and generosity are praised, with Jane expressing gratitude for Desley's leadership and mentorship. Desley expresses appreciation for the recognition and shares her contact information for those interested in connecting or learning more about her work. The conversation concludes with mutual appreciation and gratitude for the exchange.
Full Show Transcript:
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Hi there, my name is Jane Anderson, and this is the Jane Anderson Brand New Show. It's the podcast for experts who want to have greater impact, influence and income for their businesses and careers. As experts, we know that people buy from people and work with people who they know, who they like and who they trust.
So I'm so glad you're here because it's that time again now to really amplify how you show up in the world. Hi there, my name is Jane Anderson and welcome to the Jane Anderson Show. I am so thrilled that you are here and joining us today.
This is a community where we talk all things women in consulting. So women who have consulting practices and are typically working with medium, large and sometimes even small businesses. So I've been doing this for a number of years and today I'm going to be interviewing one of our very special guests and her name is Dr. Desley Ludwig. She's a professional coach and leadership development expert known for her innovative coaching methodology and her ability to inspire, inform and facilitate action. She has over 20 years experience and she works with executives and leaders and managers to help them gain satisfaction in their work. She came from a really diverse career and background.
She was the managing director of a global IT company. She founded a learning company as well and she completed a PhD in something called contextualist coaching and actually as a result created a program and a piece of IP that she's created called cohort coaching, which has really helped people to create real shifts in their organizations around the world. She's a professional speaker and very sought after speaker.
She's a graduate of the Australian Institute of Company Directors and she really wakes people. I think when I think about Desley, I think about a lot of her work has been around adult development theory and she really understands that real shift point or that real tipping point that people have often in their late 40s and 50s and they're in exec roles. Really kind of when they hit that point where they go, is this all there is and what am I doing here and really understanding some of those complex things at an individual level and then at an organizational level and what's going on for executives and teams at that level.
So she's on the board of the Loom Network and if she's not coaching and developing leaders, she divulges in her passion or indulges, I should say, in her passion for music as a keyboard player and a rock band. She lives with her musician husband and Turkish Angora rescue cat. Please welcome one and only Dr. Desley Lodwick. Hi Desley. It's so great to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for joining us.
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[Speaker 1] (2:59 - 3:02)
It's my pleasure to be here, Jane. I love having a chat with you.
[Speaker 2] (3:02 - 3:17)
We always have a good time. Desley, you have an incredible practice and the work that you have done in terms of building your personal brand and you obviously have Abra and how on earth did you get to here? This work you're doing is incredible.
[Speaker 1] (3:17 - 4:05)
Thanks, Jane. How I got here, time passed. I'm actually quite proud to say that I'm old and I have to say that being over 60 is actually quite wonderful because I realized as I was getting older that there were less things that were bothering me and I was able to get more of a balcony view on myself and my life.
And that's one of the pleasures of getting older. And then I realized, you know what, there's a lot of people out there like me whose best is yet to come. And I've had this energy associated with, well, actually what can be done now?
And so I'm enjoying working with young people, middle-aged people and people who still think their best is yet to come. So that's what's driving me at the moment. You know, there's a great need to make a difference in the world.
[Speaker 2] (4:06 - 4:42)
Amazing, Desley. I think one of the things we talk a lot about is that feeling of contribution, fulfillment, that we have something to offer and to support people in their journeys, whatever that journey is that they're on. Your work is fascinating around this adult development theory and the work that you've done, you've had an incredible life and the application of that, that you've now brought into the work that you've done, you've completed a PhD in this work.
Are you happy to tell us a little bit about the work that you do and how you help people and then how this works with the PhD that you completed?
[Speaker 1] (4:43 - 5:40)
Well, I was in executive roles up until 2003. I was managing director of a global IT company. And then at 2003, I left the organization and I decided, what is it that I really want to do?
And I actually recognized and I wondered about my own cynicism. I thought there's so much that's not working in organizations. There's so much that I saw as I traveled around the world about people not really thriving in their jobs, not really enjoying it, people coping in their jobs.
I saw so much defensiveness and I realized that it was just people trying to do the best that they could most of the time. And I thought, well, I'd like to dig around in that for a bit. So I actually did a coaching course and realized that I'd stumbled upon something that really opened my mind up to a lot of different possibilities.
So I began coaching and this was 20 years ago.
[Speaker 2] (5:40 - 5:40)
Wow.
[Speaker 1] (5:41 - 8:17)
Yes, I know. Where have those 20 years gone really? And it's interesting that as I became more experienced as a coach and I had conversations with other coaches around this, the more we coached individuals, we realized that we could help individuals cope more effectively and grow.
So we were supporting their development, but we weren't really making much of an input into organizational culture, organizational systems. We weren't making a difference at the systemic scale. And that left me feeling a little bit flat for a while, which is actually what I've found with a lot of other coaches.
And I thought, well, there's got to be something that can be done about this. What am I missing here? And I realized the limitations of coaching.
So I decided to do a PhD and I did it called Contextualist Coaching for Complex Times, which sounds very highfalutin, but I've spent a lot of time since there trying to work out how to actually make it accessible because there's no point in doing that level of research unless it's accessible to people in their everyday jobs. So that's what I do now. And what I uncovered in my research was that while personal leadership mastery is necessary, it's insufficient.
And what is it that can make a difference? And so I developed a way of working with people called cohort coaching, which is two coaches working with groups, typically around five people on their real life work issues and for three hours every three to four weeks and typically for at least six months. And the reason for that is because the stuff that really shows up that needs systemic change often doesn't show up until about the third cohort coaching session.
Up until that point, people focusing on their own individual challenges. And also, I realized that most people approach leadership as if it's a problem. They think there are lots of problems to be solved and there are a lot of complicated problems to be solved.
But more often, people are facing complex challenges. And while a lot of people talk about complexity, it actually requires quite a sense-making capacity to understand what complexity is. So I work with people around complexity, which means I work with people around the issues that you actually can't solve.
Analyzing them and trying to come up with an expert opinion on how to proceed, once again, is necessary but insufficient. Wow.
[Speaker 2] (8:17 - 8:29)
And so do you get to a point where they have solutions with those challenges or they have a sense of detachment and resolve that this is part of the joy of the journey? How does that work?
[Speaker 1] (8:30 - 9:06)
Well, I've found that it's useful to talk about, actually, the working title of a book I'm working on at the moment is Stop Solving Problems and Start Making Progress. So it's actually about making progress. Stop thinking you can solve complex challenges.
Stop thinking you can solve people, but you can make progress. And so it's giving up on predicting. It's all about working and reflecting on emergence.
It's about learning how to learn your way forward. It's about working with others. It's about collective leadership more than anything else.
[Speaker 2] (9:07 - 9:34)
I love that. Because leadership can be a pretty lonely space, trying to work through a lot of these experiences, I guess, they're having in their head and not knowing who I can talk to or discuss with or who do I trust. And so this model you've created is a way that it's interesting you bring in two coaches and a group of five and over the six months totally makes sense around the transformation and being able to hang in there long enough.
Why do two coaches work better than one?
[Speaker 1] (9:35 - 10:53)
There's a lot going on in a group of five participants and two coaches. There's a lot going on. And the reason that two coaches shows up to be the most effective is because each of the five individuals from a team or wherever they've come from, an organisation, a project team, they will bring their own individual issues to work on.
And so one of the coaches will be, let me put it this way, on the dance floor with them talking through what's happening, what's going on. What have you tried? Those sort of things.
But what's going on with the other coach is they're on the balcony. So they're looking at how is this group, including the other coach, making sense of what's being discussed. So complexity is all about what are the multiple perspectives you can use to make sense of what's going on?
And so a coach typically can be both on the balcony and on the dance floor. But when you've got two coaches, you can just make so much more progress. And that's what makes it different than group coaching.
Group coaching, as it's advertised, typically has quite a different approach. This is more about making sense, making sense of complexity. And it's about supporting adult development, which is what you mentioned earlier on, Jane.
[Speaker 2] (10:54 - 11:45)
Yeah, I find it fascinating just because I think even for us and you must see this yourself, you see women who have not been interested in your insights on their 20 years, say, in a corporate life, their kids have left home. They're now ready to do something for themselves. And they're sometimes thinking about, well, I think I've got this expertise and I think I have something to share and contribute and to perhaps support and help other people achieve their goals who might have perhaps been on a similar journey to me or otherwise even creating space.
What do you find based on your experience for those women who are leaving corporate or thinking about leaving corporate, what are the things they come up against and how do they know whether it would be right for them to even perhaps go down the path of doing something like this, having their own thought leadership practice?
[Speaker 1] (11:45 - 13:54)
It's quite interesting. All models are flawed, all of them, because they're based on analysis of human beings, patterns of behaviour. So they're all flawed, but they're useful.
Many of them are useful. And even the most simple ones, like I mentioned before, the balcony dance floor one, I mean, it's all flawed, but it's useful. And so adult developmental theories are, I'm finding and because my clients are finding really useful because they're helping them put some sense to what they're observing in themselves.
So I often find that a lot of women and men too, for that matter, but a lot of women are quite successful in their careers, have moved up the ladder, doing really well. And then there's this emptiness, there's this, gosh, I've achieved everything I set out to achieve, which then leads to, well, what do I do now? And quite often adult developmental theory, when it's explained and in a way of helping them make sense of how they make sense of themselves in the world, they realise that there's a transition that they're going through.
And I find that a lot of the women that I'm working with are in a period of transition, which is another little framework that they're on this cliff and there's this chasm and they don't really know if there's a safety net underneath it. So we've often dealt with the glass ceiling. There's also a glass cliff that people deal with and that can be interpreted in many ways.
But walking out into the unknown can be something that people are able to do when they have the right developmental support. So you are what you eat, but also surround yourself with people who you want to be like in a sense, who are curious, who have an optimism about the possibilities for themselves and the world for the future, people who are wanting to make a difference and not because it's making a difference about them, but making a difference in the world out of a sense of abundance, I guess. Right.
[Speaker 2] (13:54 - 14:50)
Yeah, I love that perspective. And you talk about having the right people around you, because when you're going into that level of uncertainty, there's default to our own beliefs or experiences or things, but we're in a whole new blank canvas that we've never seen before. So being able to have that support around you can make such a difference.
Desley, in terms of your own practice, to go behind the scenes a little bit, you've had your practice for some time. Tell us about, you talked about the type of clients that you work with. So you're working with organisations that could be governments, universities, research institutes, perhaps, so in academia, STEM, all sorts of types of industries, engineers and male and female.
So tell us about the type of programs you deliver. Is it just the work that you're doing in coaching or do you deliver workshops? And do you speak at conferences and events as well?
[Speaker 1] (14:50 - 16:05)
Or what does your practice look like? I do speak at conferences and events and I do run workshops and I've run them all around the world and particularly the last couple of years. I mean, it's so easy to run them virtually.
I run a lot of virtual workshops. The hardest part about that is getting up at 11 o'clock to run them from midnight to 4 a.m. But that's beside the point, quite happy to do that. So workshops, in-person workshops.
I do a lot of executive coaching, both individual coaching, but also cohort coaching. So part of it is I'm also seeking to help develop a lot of curious and interested coaches or people who've been executives that are interested in coaching to just go that next step, the biggest step in relation to coaching, a contextualist coaching development program for people who are either coaches or want to be coaches, which is not like a lot of coach programs. It's more based on development rather than competencies.
It's based on sensemaking rather than expertise. And that probably needs a bit of explanation, but perhaps not here.
[Speaker 2] (16:07 - 16:21)
And for a lot of our listeners, they'll be familiar with some of the thinking around sensemaking and a lot of our conversations around sensemaking. But interesting in this context around applying it to a situation where you've got more than one person and coaching.
[Speaker 1] (16:22 - 18:23)
It's less around what you know and more around who you are. Right. What do you mean by that?
That's what I mean by less about expertise. Expertise is around what you know, the content you can talk about. Whereas development and who you are is more about how you make sense of yourself, how you make sense of the world.
And some really key research has shown up in recent years and actually even all the way back into 1998, which was last century. Amazing, isn't it? That shows that leadership effectiveness can be correlated with stage of adult development, which is your sensemaking capacity.
And that's why I work with people around how they are making sense of their own identity in the world. And while that might sound a little bit highfalutin and academic, it's not in the actual coaching session. It's more around the questions that are asked and how people respond to them in the moment and how they relate that to what their everyday stuff is, because unless it's related to what they're facing every day and how they're feeling every day, it doesn't make much of a difference.
And what I've found is a lot of people blame themselves for what they see as shortcomings in their leadership effectiveness. And while a lot of people can prove, we've set up systems of how our organizations are structured, how our societies are structured, how we as human beings, the patterns we exist in our interrelationships all around the world. And we tend to blame ourselves and get defensive rather than be collective and work together to face the challenges that we're facing.
And once people realize that a lot of what is not working for them, they can make progress on, but they really need to connect. And once they learn to connect well with other people, progress can be made and people can be a lot more optimistic about themselves and their future, etc.
[Speaker 2] (18:24 - 19:08)
So thinking in the context of where we are at the moment, coming out of COVID, we're in remote workplaces, trying to engage team members to come back into the workplace. They're doing a few days a week and there's conversations around the quiet quitting or there's the reduced work hours that organizations are receiving pressure from is that those leaders are trying to not only work out, how do I navigate through all this at work? What's happening for me?
And is it the self-reflection and the sensemaking of how am I reacting to this? What's the journey I'm on to be able to try and I'm trying to get team members through it, but hang on, how am I getting through it myself? Is that right?
[Speaker 1] (19:09 - 20:20)
Yeah. And there's no answers to this, but there are ways forward. And sometimes the ways forward can be associated with quite small changes.
We're in a VUCA world, volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. And the advantage of volatility is that small changes can make a big difference. So when I'm working with someone or a group, even just small changes, the ramifications of that can shift them in a direction that enables other things to be possible that might not have been possible before.
The tendency is to focus on tasks. The tendency is to dehumanize ourselves instead of taking care of ourselves. I have most of the people that I've been working with in the last couple of years, they won't use the B word, which is burnout, but they'll talk about how they, well, they're heading in that direction, but they won't talk about I'm burnt out.
They'll say I'm overwhelmed. And so it's interesting that also the use of the body, the parasympathetic sympathetic nervous system, the vagus nerve, there's a lot that science has to offer in relation to how we can bring out the best in ourselves.
[Speaker 2] (20:21 - 20:46)
Amazing. And Jesley, with the work that you're doing and the progress you've had in your own practice, what have you learned? What have been the best things that you've implemented as part of your practice, whether it's tasks or whether it's for yourself and your own reflections and insights?
What have been probably say some of the most impactful things for you that you've done in terms of growing your practice?
[Speaker 1] (20:46 - 23:28)
Before I talk about growing my practice, I think it's all about growing my own sense of self, my own identity, my own mind was actually doing a PhD and I'm not saying that an academic solution is the way to go. I'm saying really get into a high level understanding. Part of my PhD was I actually spent over two years researching the coaching industry and then putting a critical lens on it.
And I realized that there was a lot about the coaching industry that, in my opinion, was basically reinforcing the problems that the coaching industry was trying to solve. And so I wouldn't have seen that if I'd not rummaged around at a deeper level. So I would say be really critically reflective on what's in front of you.
And then after I finished the PhD, I realized I have got to get academia out of my head while holding on to the critically reflective piece of it, the understandings that can come from having dived so deeply into the literature and what research shows. And then after having done that and focusing all the time on, well, what are the issues that my clients are having? What is it that I got to focus on?
It's not what can I tell them, it's what can I bring to assist them and support them in what they're doing? And so my practice moved from repeat business and word of mouth, which it's been for 20 years, to, OK, I feel like there is something to be offered here, something bigger than myself. It's not about me.
It's about what can a group of people who are interested in supporting people to live a better life at work? Because I mean, the research is clear. Most people are a significant amount of time stressed and unhappy at work.
And so what can we bring to that? And so that's why I'm ramping up my business. That's why I love working with you, Jane.
You've certainly provided me with the support that I've needed to go beyond repeat business and word of mouth. And so I'm looking forward to continuing to bring my work to a larger audience. Once again, it's not about me.
It's about what can a group of seriously committed people to improving this planet set in motion and hopefully long after set in motion that'll continue in whatever shape it needs to continue long before I'm gone.
[Speaker 2] (23:28 - 24:58)
So, yeah, and often that's a big part of this work is, you know, the few things I'm hearing, Desley, around the transformation for your own experience is doing in your case, it was your PhD. And for those who are thinking, like you said, whether a PhD is right for people or not, but what's essentially come out of that is a body of work that is useful, that you've been able to pull all those insights and translate them or sense make them into something that's useful for people's development going forward. So for those who are going or thinking, OK, do I have to do a PhD?
You could. There's one option. Desley's saying no, don't do that.
But you're talking about getting into it's almost like rolling in the mud of all the research behind the coaching industry, getting there, get to have a good look at it. And what do you think about it? What are you finding?
And that's regardless of whether we're a resilience expert, a mindset expert, a facilitation expert is really getting deep into a body of work and creating a body of work that is a critical analysis of here's what's going on. Here's what's being said. Is this true?
Here's my experience. Here's some stories. Here's other evidence to be able to build out that body of work that changes your identity, doesn't it?
It solidifies who you are.
-
And Desley, if you had to think about what have been the biggest lessons learnt in growing your practice, what would you do if you had your time again?
[Speaker 1] (24:59 - 26:52)
I thought about that question because I wondered if you'd ask a question like that. I'm committed to not having any regrets. And there've been some things that have seriously been challenges in my life.
And I don't have any regrets because I'm quite happy with who I am right now. And I wouldn't be who I am right now if I hadn't experienced everything that I've experienced so far. There's sometimes I just think, oh, wouldn't it be easier if, but it isn't.
And I just keep thinking back. I've been alive, still am, in a most amazing time. Yes.
I was the only female in computer programming in the early 1980s. Wow. And I topped the class and I realised when I topped the class and overheard these guys saying, if I'd known she was that bright, I wouldn't have helped her.
And I remember thinking, I didn't ask for your help. You felt a need to want to help me. And so I've travelled through a few decades of being a female in the IT industry.
I've travelled through decades of being a female managing director in the IT industry, which was challenging in having people take me seriously. I'm an early adopter of science and technology. So, you know, now I'm really excited about AI and what AI can offer us right now and how that can impact my business, my life, etc.
So my regrets? No, not really. I'm just really happy about the life that I've been living.
I'm anticipating how it's going to be from now on. I do everything I can to ensure that I'm as well as I can possibly be for, gosh, I don't know, be great to live another 40, 50 years. We'll see.
[Speaker 2] (26:53 - 26:54)
You're just warming up, Desley.
[Speaker 1] (26:56 - 28:40)
And in fact, there are a lot of people who are finding the same, just warming up. And it takes the bigger picture to be able to notice that rather than the decline into the old age that a lot of people have anticipated. There's a stage of adult development called self-transforming.
And I'm not here to say whether I've reached that or not. These are all frameworks, remember. They're just useful if they're useful.
But there is a stage of adult development that people typically do not reach until at least midlife. And so one of the ideas that I've got for one of my programs, which is called Amplify Midlife, is how can we support people to be their bigger selves earlier in life? Because we've got some massive challenges on the planet at the moment.
Massive challenges. Now's not necessarily the time to list what they are. I think most people know what those massive challenges are.
And we need more people who are capable of making sense of these big challenges, starting with how do I get enough energy to get up in the day and make a difference at work? I mean, that's the bottom line of a lot of challenges that we're facing. And that's where I'm heading.
How can people live their best lives? What can I do to help them live their best lives or even to know what their best lives are? But also, how can we raise our children in ways that allows them to be healthy?
In healthy, I mean, in all senses of the world, of the word, how can they be healthy moving forward? So that's what I've come up with as a legacy. I love that, Desley.
[Speaker 2] (28:40 - 31:10)
You're doing amazing work and your insights into this work. And it's often something that sometimes comes up when people have had their practices for a while. You've been doing this for 20 years, is really thinking about what is that legacy of my work?
And as you say, it's not about us. It's not about, you know, look at me and it's my work and my legacy. But it's about how do I create tools, how to create frameworks, thinking or useful ways for people to continue the conversation down the track.
So, Desley, you're doing amazing work. We are so in awe of everything that you're doing and the amount of women that I meet that spend time with you and they go, I just love Desley. I just love Desley.
I want to be Desley when I grow up. You really are a leading light for not just the clients that you work with, but anybody who engages with you. There's so many people who I know feel that you really impact them when you spend time with them.
It's been such a pleasure to have you today. When I think of you, the words that come to mind are always innovation is a big one. You're always leading the way.
And I love what you said. The 60 is the new 20. You look at, I think about women that are Instagram stars and they've found their new accidental icon.
Have you seen there's a woman, her Instagram is called Accidental Icon. She's in her 60s. She's just started modeling and she just is fabulous.
But you're a real reminder, I think, that we have so much more available to us. We have so much more opportunity coming to a stage in your career where you, if you've done 20 years in your career, is that it's not over yet. Is that you just warming up.
You have so much more that you can step up with and to be able to share, contribute. I think there's a lot of women out there certainly that I speak with that are sometimes afraid to be able to make a leap like that. There's a lot of things to take into account.
But you're a real inspiration for anyone that wants to follow you and to learn more. The words, as I was going to say, the words come to mind. You just exude kindness and generosity.
And I don't think I ever see you without a smile on your face. And you just have that magnetism about you. That's what people gravitate to people like you because they want to learn, how do I get to be Desley?
That's really essentially what you're doing is translating all that. And you're the embodiment of it. So you're a real leader.
So thank you for sharing today.
[Speaker 1] (31:11 - 31:13)
Oh, thank you, Jane. You're a big part of that. Thank you.
[Speaker 2] (31:14 - 31:21)
My pleasure. If people want to follow you, Desley, or if they want to learn more about your work and they go, where would you like them to go?
[Speaker 1] (31:22 - 31:51)
I've got two websites. One is desleylodwick.com and I've got a white paper that talks a little bit about my approach to the things that I've talked about today. And also the business Aberrant Learning, which you can get to.
It's aberrant.com.au and connect in that way. I'm very open to connecting. I would love to have a chat with anyone who's interested in what I've talked about today.
So thank you. Thanks so much, Desley.
