Episode 86- Leading Through Complexity and Change: Lessons from Susanne Le Boutillier
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Most leaders don't get to choose when complexity shows up. It arrives mid-project, mid-restructure, mid-career, and it rarely announces itself politely.
Susanne Le Boutillier has spent more than 30 years working inside that kind of complexity. As a senior executive turned leadership consultant, coach, and facilitator, and a member of Jane Anderson's Women with Influence program, she has built her entire practice around one core idea: leaders don't need to eliminate uncertainty to lead well through it. They need a way to find their footing inside it.
In a conversation on The Jane Anderson Show, Le Boutillier shared the personal story behind that idea, including the burnout that pushed her out of a long public-sector career, the writing discipline that turned decades of expertise into a book-in-progress, and the practical lessons she's learned building a lean, sustainable consulting practice.
This article breaks down her core leadership framework, the process she uses to consistently produce thought leadership content, and the operational lessons she's learned running her business, with her own words used where they add the most clarity.
Who Is Susanne Le Boutillier?
Susanne Le Boutillier is an executive consultant, coach, and facilitator with over 30 years of experience working on complex and challenging projects. Her background includes senior public-sector leadership roles, where she developed deep expertise in leadership, stakeholder engagement, and organisational change.
Today, her consulting practice spans multiple formats: strategic advisory work, coaching, mentoring, facilitation, training in evidence-based leadership tools, and, increasingly, professional speaking. She is also currently writing a book built around the leadership framework described below.
From Burnout to Business: Leaving the Public Sector Behind
Le Boutillier didn't leave employment as part of a clean, planned exit. She left after burning out.
"It took me 15 years of coming close at different times," she explained, describing a long pattern of high-pressure roles that repeatedly pushed her toward the edge before she finally stepped back.
The circumstances that eventually ended her employment weren't entirely her own decision, either. A restructure at her organisation led to her role being dissolved, and her manager ended her contract early, triggering a termination payment. At the time, she was already studying for an executive graduate certificate in leadership through coaching and mentoring, a program she initially approached with some scepticism.
"When people told me, 'Oh, it's transformational,' I thought, 'Oh yeah, they all say that.' But it really was."
That combination, a forced ending and an unexpected period of study and reflection, became the turning point. It gave her space to ask a harder question than "what job comes next": who did she actually want to be, and how could her work reflect that?
The Turning Point: An Executive Graduate Certificate in Leadership
The graduate program didn't just teach her new coaching techniques. It gave her language and structure for something she'd been circling for years: the idea of deliberately deciding who gets access to her time, energy, and business, rather than reacting to whatever came her way.
She describes this as putting a "velvet rope" across the front of her business, a concept she credits to advice from an executive coach and to Michael Port's book Book Yourself Solid. Instead of focusing on avoiding burnout, she focused on actively choosing who she let into her "VIP area", the clients and projects worth her attention.
That mindset shift, more than any single tactic, is what allowed her to build a practice on her own terms.
The "Eye of the Storm": A Framework for Leading Through Complexity
At the centre of Le Boutillier's work, and her upcoming book, is a metaphor she returns to again and again: the perfect storm.
"I'm just in the middle of a perfect storm; all of these things have just come together, they've joined up in unexpected ways, and it's just overwhelming."
She noticed that in these moments, her own reactive tendencies, the drive to control outcomes, to please everyone, to make things perfect, would intensify. And the more those tendencies took over, the more she lost her sense of self within the situation. It's a dynamic echoed by fellow guest Melanie Marshall, who explores leading through organisational culture and change in her own episode.
Her answer isn't to avoid the storm. It's to find the eye for it.
"You need to find your way into the eye of the storm. You need to deeply ground yourself in that eye and get some perspective and figure out who you need to be next, and what you need to do next."
Critically, grounding yourself in the eye isn't the end goal. Leaders still have to go back out through the eyewall, traverse the storm, and find the next eye further along. The book, she says, is built around identifying what she calls the "Centering Star", the elements that guide someone from one eye of the storm to the next.
Direction Over Destination: Repositioning Your Compass
One of the more counterintuitive pieces of advice Le Boutillier offers is about goal-setting itself. In highly complex environments, she argues, fixating on a specific destination can actually work against you.
"When you're in complexity, you can't ever say, 'This is exactly where I'm going to land.' Focus on a direction rather than a specific destination."
The distinction matters. A fixed destination can cause leaders to filter out unexpected opportunities that don't fit the original plan. A direction, by contrast, works more like a compass heading, something you can continually reposition as circumstances shift, while staying open to possibilities you couldn't have predicted at the outset.
Centred Leadership: Who Do You Need to Be Next?
Le Boutillier's framework is built around two deceptively simple questions:
Who do I need to be next?
What do I need to do next?
The first is about identity and presence, how a leader shows up. The second is about action. Together, she frames them as the "being" and "doing" sides of centred leadership.
She's candid that this isn't a one-time diagnostic. The Centering Star, as she describes it, has multiple "arms," and she's currently using existing third-party diagnostic tools to help measure different elements of it. Longer term, she's working toward developing her own integrated diagnostic that helps people quickly identify where they need to focus next.
This is a framework still being built out in real time, a useful reminder that thought leadership doesn't require having every answer polished before sharing it publicly.
Why This Resonates Beyond the C-Suite
While Le Boutillier's own career was in large-scale public-sector leadership, she notes that this sense of being caught in "a perfect storm" isn't limited to senior executives.
"I feel that that's a feeling that a lot of people have these days," whether that's leading a team, running a household, or managing a business through constant change.
Building a Thought Leadership Habit: The Pink Sheet Process
Perhaps the most immediately useful part of Le Boutillier's story isn't the leadership framework. It's how she turned decades of expertise into a consistent stream of published content.
For years, she struggled to write anything at all. Despite repeatedly going through the curriculum at Thought Leaders Business School, founded by Matt Church, she had never completed what's known in that program as a "pink sheet," a structured process for unpacking a single piece of thought leadership.
"I had this massive block," she said, describing how she eventually attended a content creation bootcamp and found herself "squirming" in her seat, ready to walk out.
Something clicked that day. She started producing content and hasn't stopped: at the time of this conversation, she had published 30 pieces since starting, a full year's worth of weekly newsletters.
Her process now has a clear rhythm:
Set a hard deadline (in her case, a draft completed by Monday night)
Always complete the "pink sheet" or content sheet first, capturing the core thinking before writing a single sentence of the final piece
Copy that thinking into a blank document and rewrite it into the finished newsletter
Why Modelling Can Stall Your Thinking
One adaptation Le Boutillier made to the original pink sheet process is worth highlighting for anyone building their own content system: she deliberately removed heavy "modelling," the more structured, analytical frameworks, from the early stages.
She found that for many people (in her observation, more often women than men), getting caught up in modelling too early created self-doubt that stalled the entire writing process.
"It would pull the time, energy, effort away from the rest of the thinking... I found it made a difference because now I've finally hit, you've got to get your first hundred out, to get the rubbish out of your head."
Only after building a large volume of raw material did she find it useful to go back and build models, turning scattered ideas into the coherent structure that's now becoming her book.
Building a Lean, Sustainable Consulting Practice
Le Boutillier's core team is small: herself and her assistant, Janella, who she's worked with for about two years. Around that core, she brings in trusted collaborators for specific projects, including a freelance graphic designer sourced through Upwork for PowerPoint templates, and Samantha Rush, a fellow consultant with whom she co-developed a game.
The Indicator of Ambiguity: A Gamified Learning Tool
That collaboration with Samantha Rush is a useful example of how consultants can extend their own expertise. Both had completed accreditation in a tool called the Indicator of Ambiguity, and rather than each using it separately, they built a game around it, helping teams build awareness of their own tolerance for ambiguity, then practise the skills to strengthen it. Rush explores this same territory in her own episode on how psychological safety shapes team decision-making.
Le Boutillier points to the evidence base behind gamified learning as the reason this approach made sense: it gives people a low-stakes way to engage with a concept that can otherwise feel abstract.
Working With a Virtual Assistant: Lessons from Janella
Some of the most practical advice in this conversation has nothing to do with leadership theory. It's about how to actually run a consulting business day to day.
Le Boutillier is direct about where friction with a VA usually comes from: "Most of the time, when things don't work quite the right way with Janella, it's because I haven't put the work in. It's not because of Janella."
Her approach to building that working relationship includes:
Documenting processes as she does them, so Janella can take over repeatable tasks (like onboarding a new coaching client)
Giving honest, specific feedback about what does and doesn't fit her brand, even when she can't fully articulate what she does want
Treating the relationship as a two-way investment, including supporting Janella's own professional development
She also frames the compounding value of small clarifications over time: "It's 99% of the time someone's not, I assumed too much, or I didn't explain that properly... but the compounding of that, 1% every day."
Getting Financial and Admin Support Early
If she could change one thing about how she started, Le Boutillier says it would be putting financial and administrative systems in place earlier, before her practice got busy. This same lesson, of finding advisors and support early who genuinely understand your world, comes up again in Rita Cincotta's episode on deliberate leadership and building a consulting practice.
Using a competing values framework assessment on her own business, she identified financial admin as a weak point early on. Because the business wasn't busy yet, the gap didn't seem urgent, until it was.
"It took off for a sustained period of time, and I didn't have those [systems]... it was just backpedalling all the time."
Her advice is straightforward: don't wait until you're overwhelmed to call your accountant.
Frequently Asked Questions
What is "centred leadership"?
Centred leadership, as described by Susanne Le Boutillier, is an approach built around two questions, who you need to be next, and what you need to do next, designed to help leaders stay grounded while navigating ongoing complexity and change.
What does the "eye of the storm" metaphor mean for leaders?
It represents a moment of grounding and perspective inside a chaotic or overwhelming situation. Rather than avoiding difficulty, leaders find their footing in this "eye," decide their next move, then continue through the storm toward the next point of stability.
How did Susanne Le Boutillier transition from public service to consulting?
After years of high-pressure roles leading to eventual burnout, a workplace restructure ended her position. During an executive graduate certificate in leadership through coaching and mentoring, she used that transition period to redefine her direction before building her consulting practice.
What is the "pink sheet" content process?
Originally developed by Matt Church of Thought Leaders Business School, the pink sheet is a structured process for unpacking a single piece of thought leadership before writing it up. Le Boutillier adapted it by removing heavy modelling from the early stages to avoid stalling people's thinking.
How can consultants build an effective working relationship with a virtual assistant?
By documenting repeatable processes, giving specific and honest feedback, treating the relationship as a long-term two-way investment, and recognising that most friction comes from unclear communication rather than the assistant's ability.
Where can I learn more about Susanne Le Boutillier's work?
She shares more detail through her website, including a white paper on navigating uncertainty, and is active on LinkedIn. Listen to the full conversation on The Jane Anderson Show.
Conclusion
Susanne Le Boutillier's story doesn't offer a shortcut through complexity. It offers something more durable: a repeatable way to stay grounded inside it. Whether it's the "eye of the storm" framework for leadership, the discipline behind her weekly writing habit, or the practical lessons she's learned building a business with a small, trusted team, the throughline is the same. Complexity isn't something to eliminate. It's something to build a practice around.
For consultants and leaders alike, that's a distinction worth sitting with, especially the next time everything feels like it's coming apart at once.
Work With Jane Anderson
If you're building your own consulting or coaching practice and want support with the systems behind it, from content strategy to team structure, explore the Women with Influence program.
Curious about the ambiguity-tolerance game mentioned in this episode? Listen to co-creator Samantha Rush's episode: How Psychological Safety Shapes Team Decision-Making.
Key Takeaways from Today’s Episode:
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In this segment, Jane Anderson introduces her podcast, "The Jane Anderson Brand New Show," targeting experts aiming for greater impact, influence, and income in their businesses and careers. She emphasizes the importance of personal connection in business and introduces the special guest, Suzanne Laboutillier, a seasoned executive with expertise in leadership, stakeholder engagement, and change management. Jane describes Suzanne's ability to simplify complex situations and help teams navigate challenges effectively. Suzanne's approach is noted for turning difficult tasks into manageable ones, enabling individuals and organizations to thrive. Jane sets the stage for an insightful interview with Suzanne, providing listeners with a glimpse into her professional journey and expertise.
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Suzanne Laboutillier shares her career transition from being an employed professional to becoming an independent consultant. She reflects on her experience of burnout and the realization that prioritizing herself was essential for personal and professional fulfillment. Suzanne discusses the pivotal moment when her contract ended abruptly, providing her with the opportunity to reevaluate her career path. She describes her decision to venture into consulting, driven by a desire to utilize her expertise in helping others thrive amidst complexity. Despite initial challenges and setbacks, Suzanne's journey highlights the importance of perseverance and learning from experiences. She credits a supportive network and professional development programs, such as Thought Leaders Business School, for aiding her transition and refining her consulting practice.
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Jane Anderson acknowledges Suzanne's progress in developing her consulting practice and prolific content creation. Suzanne reflects on her initial struggles with content creation, attributing her success to discipline and a structured approach. She discusses the impact of attending a content creation boot camp, where she overcame barriers to writing newsletters and expressing her thought leadership. Suzanne outlines her content creation process, emphasizing the importance of capturing her intellectual property (IP) before refining it into newsletters. She credits Thought Leaders Business School and Matt Church's pink sheet process for guiding her in unpacking her thought leadership effectively. Jane commends Suzanne's dedication to producing insightful content and acknowledges the value of structured frameworks in content creation.
This segment provides insights into Suzanne Laboutillier's professional journey, highlighting her transition to consulting, the evolution of her consulting practice, and her approach to content creation. Suzanne's story underscores the significance of resilience, continuous learning, and structured processes in navigating career transitions and building a successful consulting practice.
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Suzanne and Jane delve into the process of content creation, focusing on Suzanne's breakthrough in developing models and frameworks for her thought leadership. Suzanne credits Jane's content creation boot camp for overcoming her initial struggles and facilitating her prolific newsletter writing. She discusses the importance of discipline and routine in her content creation process, emphasizing the significance of capturing her intellectual property (IP) before refining it into newsletters. Suzanne reveals her plans to write a book, utilizing her accumulated content to develop cohesive models that tie different aspects of her practice together. She aims to create a meta-level explanation of her practice through the book, which will serve as a foundation for future programs, keynotes, and facilitation work, with a primary focus on centered leadership.
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Suzanne elaborates on the concept of centered leadership, employing metaphors of perfect storms and the eye of the storm to illustrate her point. She emphasizes the importance of grounding oneself in the eye of the storm to gain perspective and navigate through complexity effectively. Suzanne highlights the need for individuals to continuously recenter themselves amidst uncertainty, focusing on who they need to be next and what they need to do next. Jane acknowledges the relevance of centered leadership not only for organizational leaders but also for individuals navigating personal and professional challenges. They discuss the fluid nature of direction-setting in complex environments and the importance of remaining open to new possibilities and opportunities.
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Suzanne outlines her approach to assessing centered leadership, incorporating both inner and outer engagement. She introduces the concept of the Centering Star, a diagnostic tool comprising various arms that measure different elements of centeredness. While currently utilizing existing diagnostics, Suzanne plans to develop a meta-diagnostic to help individuals identify areas for focus and balance. Jane acknowledges the timeliness and relevance of Suzanne's work, particularly in navigating uncertainty and supporting personal and professional growth. They discuss the potential impact of centered leadership frameworks in organizational settings and the value of self-awareness in personal development and leadership effectiveness.
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Suzanne provides insights into the structure of her consulting practice, highlighting her core team consisting of herself and her assistant, Janella. She discusses her approach to outsourcing specific tasks to freelancers, such as graphic design and podcast support, based on project needs. Suzanne emphasizes the importance of trusted partnerships and collaborations, citing examples of collaborative projects with other practitioners. She shares her innovative approach to developing gamified learning experiences with collaborators, aimed at enhancing engagement and learning outcomes. Jane commends Suzanne's ability to innovate and adapt her expertise to various learning formats, reflecting on the evolving landscape of knowledge dissemination and engagement strategies.
This segment provides a comprehensive overview of Suzanne Laboutillier's approach to centered leadership, content creation, practice structure, and collaborative partnerships, highlighting her commitment to helping individuals and organizations navigate complexity and thrive in uncertain environments. Suzanne's insights underscore the importance of self-awareness, continuous learning, and strategic partnerships in driving personal and professional growth.
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Suzanne reflects on her practice development journey, highlighting two significant learnings. Firstly, she emphasizes the importance of seeking the right type of support early on, particularly from professionals who understand one's specific industry or context. Suzanne acknowledges the value of aligning external support with personal brand and values to maintain authenticity and avoid misalignment. Secondly, she underscores the necessity of implementing structures and systems, especially for tasks outside one's core strengths, such as financial administration. Suzanne advises early investment in expert advice and support to prevent future challenges and inefficiencies, emphasizing the proactive establishment of systems and processes to sustain business growth.
Jane commends Suzanne's practical insights and underscores the importance of essential support functions, such as accounting and administration, in business management. They discuss the challenges of juggling multiple responsibilities and the critical role of offshore team members in alleviating workload pressure. Suzanne shares her approach to optimizing the collaboration with her assistant, Janella, emphasizing the significance of investing time in developing clear communication and workflows. She highlights the value of continuous improvement and feedback in refining processes and enhancing productivity. Jane acknowledges Suzanne's exemplary teamwork and proactive approach to practice management, emphasizing the importance of nurturing long-term relationships with support staff for sustained success.
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Suzanne provides insights into connecting with her and accessing resources related to embracing uncertainty through her website and LinkedIn profile. She invites individuals interested in her work to engage further through consultations and networking opportunities. Jane expresses her appreciation for Suzanne's expertise and contributions to thought leadership, highlighting the relevance of her work in the evolving landscape of work and organizational dynamics. Suzanne expresses gratitude for Jane's support and mentorship, acknowledging the positive impact on her practice's clarity and future direction. Both speakers reflect on the challenges and rewards of navigating complexity and uncertainty in business and express mutual support and encouragement for each other's endeavors.
Full Show Transcript:
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Hi there, my name is Jane Anderson and this is the Jane Anderson Brand New Show. It's the podcast for experts who want to have greater impact, influence and income for their businesses and careers. As experts, we know that people buy from people and work with people who they know, who they like and who they trust.
So I'm so glad you're here because it's that time again now to really amplify how you show up in the world. Hi there and welcome to the Jane Anderson Show. I am so thrilled you are here and joining us today for this very special interview.
So this podcast is all about working with women who have consulting practices. So perhaps you are working B2B and you have speaking, training, coaching, consulting, advisory, mentoring, all of the above. So any of those things and today I'm going to interview one of our very special guests and someone who is in our Women with Influence program to go a little bit behind the scenes and talk a little bit about her practice, how she got there, some of the amazing work that she does and hopefully you find it as inspiring as I do.
So our very special guest today is a seasoned executive. So she is a bit like a savvy chef. She knows how to put a pinch of ambiguity and a dash of complexity and a dollop of effective leadership and she cooks up success.
With over 30 years experience working on complex and challenging contexts, she's become an expert in leadership, stakeholder engagement and change. She has a really warm and insightful approach in her work and she brings a real sense of clarity for what can seem really complex situations for people and their teams. She turns mountains into really manageable molehills and it's a really unique skill that she has.
She's committed to helping leaders and organizations navigate through the tough stuff and come out the other side not only surviving but thriving. So I hope you enjoy this really great interview with Susanne Laboutillier. Okay, Susanne, I'm so excited you are here.
Thank you so much for joining us today. It's so exciting to have you on the podcast.
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Thanks, Jane. I love talking to you, as you know, so very happy to be here.
[Speaker 2] (2:41 - 3:18)
Susanne, you have just such a fascinating practice and your air of expertise fascinates me. I guess maybe it's because I go, you know, in this game as a consultant, you're dealing with a lot of complexity, a lot of uncertainty, all those things. But you've had a really amazing career to get to this point.
And, you know, because on the surface it can look like, oh, she's amazing, this all magically happened overnight and you make it all look so easy. But are you happy to share a bit of your journey? How did you end up in susannelaboutillier.com?
[Speaker 1] (3:20 - 4:53)
So I suppose, Jane, a lot of people who know me will probably tell you that I'm a workaholic. But I have to tell you that over my career, when I was employed, it wasn't always by choice. And I found myself in a situation where it tended to amplify all my reactive tendencies.
So it really triggered my perfectionism, my tendency to want to please people, my drive and my deep sense of responsibility and purpose. And what I found is that actually stopped me from being the person that I wanted to be and how I wanted to exist in the world. And when I really started thinking about it, I realised that it wasn't making my soul sing.
There were pieces of work I absolutely loved and I was absolutely passionate about. And I'm still very, very purpose driven. But I realised that I needed to actually prioritise me a little bit more.
And so working outside of the public sector meant that I could still help affect system change by working on projects that I loved and with people that I really could see enormous potential in. And I get quite excited about being part of those people's journeys. But I decided that I just needed to stop being an employee.
And I needed to actually tap into all of the different things that I've done and help people in a range of different ways so they can thrive in complexity.
[Speaker 2] (4:55 - 5:25)
That's amazing. I think for a lot of those people listening today, they're probably going, Oh, that's so me. My soul is dying in corporate or feeling like I've got more in me, but I'm just not probably getting to bring all of that self-expression out to not only what you love, but being able to help people.
What do you think really helped you make the shift? How did you actually do that?
[Speaker 1] (5:25 - 8:42)
Okay. And this is typical for me. So I'm someone who likes to have a secure base.
So I remember doing a leadership day with some women one day, and this very successful businesswoman said to me, Wow. She said, You're really interesting because you've done all these really big and challenging jobs at work where you've really had to go into really difficult situations where it was really complex and you didn't know how it was going to work out. But she said, But you've had your hair cut by the same hairdresser since you were in grade six.
You've had the same dentist since you were three years old. And I had this whole list of other things that were like a secure base for me. So no surprise.
The reason I made the shift is I burnt out. Took me 15 years of coming close at different times, but needing to really take some time out because the circumstances at work were just completely overwhelming and unsustainable. And when I came back to work, they were doing a review, and they decided to strike up the area that I worked in.
And my role wasn't the same. And my boss at the time was very kind and ended my contract early, triggering a termination payment, which I was studying at university at the time. I'd already decided after burning out, I wanted to get back to being the leader that I wanted to be.
And I was doing something called an executive graduate certificate in leadership through coaching and mentoring. And when people told me, Oh, it's transformational. I thought, oh, yeah, they all say that.
But it really was. So I had a bit of a gift of being given some time. And I had a little bit of a safety net for a little while to work out who I was and how do I get back to that person?
And what type of a person do I want to be? And that's when I made the decision that I wanted to have a velvet rope across the front of my business. So an exec coach I had said to me, rather than focusing on what I didn't want and the fear of being caught up in that burnout situation again, focus on having my own velvet rope and deciding who I let beyond that velvet rope into my VIP area.
Book yourself solid. We love market. Great advice.
And then I started talking to people that I used to know and I got my first consulting gig and I made the classic mistake of I got all excited. You know, it was a very big consulting gig. Love the clients.
Love the project. I got in. I did it.
And I. This is during COVID. And I knew nothing about building a pipeline, developing relationships, nurturing relationships.
And so then it was a bit hairy there for a while afterwards until I managed to finally get it get it going again. Yeah. So it was.
Yeah. Stop and start.
[Speaker 2] (8:44 - 9:34)
Well, certainly, I think in the first couple of years, those listening today would be able to relate to that because, you know, it's not to your knee deep in that you start to realize because often we sort of work off those networks. Don't we? When we start, they'll go, oh, you're leaving.
Can we still get you to come work with us? Can you finish this project or whatever? But then the reality kicks in of, OK, do you have a database?
How are you going to get leads? And then, you know, that hits hard. But today you've come such a long way in terms of your practice now and the type of work that you do.
What does your practice look like? Are you speaking? Are you doing a bit of coaching?
Is it workshops? I know you do a lot of facilitation. What is the what is the mix of programs that you deliver?
What does that look like?
[Speaker 1] (9:34 - 10:29)
It's a very big mix. And it's even I find I've got some clients where I've gone in and I've done one type of engagement for them. And then I've realized I can do all of these other things.
And then I'm so I've got a few clients that I consult and I do consult on projects and I provide really informed advice related to my background. I do coaching. I do mentoring.
I do facilitation. I train them in some of the evidence based tools and techniques that I specialize in. So I do a really broad range.
I am speak is starting to speak. And that's certainly an area that I'm focused on building because I used to do a lot of speaking as a senior public servant. Yes.
But now I'm really finding my feet as a professional speaker. Yeah. Yeah.
[Speaker 2] (10:30 - 11:35)
Wow. So you've taken your expertise plus sort of elevated it and gone deeper in your IP and then looked at the different modes of how you can deliver that. So whether it's speaking, facilitation, training, and you are just prolific for those who are listening.
If you haven't jumped on Suzanne's newsletter, she writes a fantastic newsletter. But I know that wasn't always necessarily, you know, we sort of think sometimes people just magically have this gift of writing newsletters and getting this IP out of their head. But you have done an amazing job on how you've been able to get to this point where you should see Suzanne, by the way, you should see if you get to catch up with her.
She had this incredible thought and how she's got her IP cataloged and everything. It's so perfect. But it wasn't always like that, was it?
How did you get to this point of being able to be not only prolific, but so insightful? And now this process that you've got now, because I know that was a big one for you.
[Speaker 1] (11:35 - 12:16)
Yeah, it was. And a few different things, I think, were playing out my perfectionism, my fear of other people's opinions. And you had a big part to play in this because I had been involved in something which I know you came out of Thought Leaders Business School as well.
And I had done all the curriculum repeatedly and I had never, ever written a pink sheet or a content sheet, whatever you want to call it. And I just seemed to have this massive block. And so I made the choice to come along to one of your content creation boot camps.
And I know you sat there and watched me squirming in my seat, about ready to walk out.
[Speaker 2] (12:16 - 12:21)
In the kindest way, in the kindest way. I'm not as not really a torturer.
[Speaker 1] (12:22 - 13:39)
No, no, she was very nice about it. She was very nice and supportive. But it was just, it must have been really humorous to watch me sitting there trying to get this pink sheet out.
And then I just got on a roll and I thought I would never do, like I couldn't do a newsletter. But I was really inspired by some of the other women there and what they were doing and understanding what they did. And so I started.
And I think that advice about just set yourself a discipline. And so my routine is I have to have the newsletter done, you know, at least the draft by Monday night. And sometimes I'm sitting down on a Monday night, but I always write my pink sheet on my content sheet first.
And then I sit down and I write it. So I might see something or notice something the week before and think, oh, that would be a good newsletter. But before I write it, I make myself sit down and capture my IP.
So really develop my thinking. And then I just copy and paste it into a blank document. And then I rewrite it into what I want to say.
But I've got all the elements there. Yeah. And that's how I built it.
Number 30 this week. Thank you to you.
[Speaker 2] (13:39 - 15:41)
Number 30. So that's for this year. How many you've done?
Yeah, since I started. Number 30. Since you started.
Amazing. So for those who are wondering, full acknowledgement to Matt Church, who created a program called Thought Leaders Business School. He's been around for a long time.
And Matt created what is called the pink sheet process, which is how to unpack your thought leadership. So for those who are listening, you can Google Matt Church Thought Leaders or pink sheet process. We've created a slightly simpler version that doesn't have necessarily as much modelling on it, which I find sometimes quite often.
And you're not necessarily the first one to say that, Suzanne, in full respect to the pink sheet process. But I do find and this is why I created the content page, because I found that I don't know if it was just mostly women. I don't know if it didn't really come across a lot of men necessarily.
But I found that modelling tended to distract people and pull people into so much self doubt and fear and and quicksand that the it would pull the time energy effort away from the rest of the thinking. So, for example, so for those who are listening, what does this mean? So if you're unpacking a piece of IP, you've got things like what's the message?
How do you explain it in a metaphor? What would be the story you might tell? Have you got a quote?
And for a lot of thought leadership, you might have some modelling in it. But some people really thrive in modelling. But I just found repeatedly that it just it just stalled people's thinking so much.
I was like, can we just take this off? And and so I'm glad you've got that breakthrough, because it was one of the things I was just finding holding so many people back. We go, you know what?
We need modelling. We'll add it on later. Let's just get going.
[Speaker 1] (15:42 - 16:14)
And I found it made a difference because now I finally hit the I know we had conversations about you've got to get your first hundred out to get the rubbish out of your head. And but now that I've got them out, it's easier to play with models. And so I've worked out my own process for doing my models and helping me to make sense of all of the different pieces of thinking that I've done and bring it together into a cohesive whole.
And also help me then identify where I've got gaps. And then I think, oh, I'll do a newsletter about that and I'll fill the gap.
[Speaker 2] (16:14 - 17:01)
Yeah. So it becomes part of the iteration process as opposed to, you know, where it originates necessarily. So you can just, you know, it allows that stream of consciousness to just keep moving and let the flood let the flood like floodgates go for a while.
And then we can come back in that iteration of of them if we've got to come back and do modelling and and yours have evolved so much. I'm seeing different palettes or there's other stories you add on and just a living, breathing sort of tool that continues to evolve. So with the IP that you're looking at doing, what are you going to do with it?
Are you going to is it just newsletters or blogs and big plans?
[Speaker 1] (17:04 - 17:37)
So I I went and I spread on my pink sheets and content sheets out and started to look for the patterns in them. And and I'm going to write a book. I am writing a book.
I'm well into it now. Yes. And I've been using it all to develop the models that help tie different parts of the book together.
And that will then be the. The meta level explanation of what my practice is all about.
[Speaker 2] (17:37 - 17:37)
Right.
[Speaker 1] (17:37 - 18:00)
And then I will develop programs and keynotes and other things from there. And I think I will always still do the facilitation and because health and human services is dear to my heart. I'm sure from time to time if there's a project opportunity, I really love.
I'll still do that, but I really want to focus in on centered leadership.
[Speaker 2] (18:00 - 18:04)
Yeah. Centered leadership. So what is centered leadership mean?
[Speaker 1] (18:06 - 18:51)
So I've got two core metaphors within the book. And the first one is I've over many years, I always used to talk about I'm just in the middle of a perfect storm. You know, all of those things have just come together.
They've joined up in unexpected ways and it's just overwhelming. And what I would notice about myself is then my reactive tendencies and my tendency to want to control or to make things perfect or to keep everyone happy. We just get really amplified in that type of perfect storm environment.
And you start to to lose yourself in the context. So I feel that that's a feeling that a lot of people have these days.
[Speaker 2] (18:51 - 18:51)
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (18:52 - 19:35)
And what I've realized through all of the work that I've done on myself over the last number of years is that you need to find your way into the eye of the storm. Right. And you need to deeply ground yourself in that eye and get some perspective and figure out who you need to be next.
Right. And what you need to do next. And you need to then go through.
It's not about avoiding the storm. You've got to go back out into the storm through the eye wall and traverse the storm, but then find the next eye of the storm and recenter yourself again. The book is all about the what what makes up the centering star that guides you from one eye of the storm to the next.
[Speaker 2] (19:35 - 20:20)
Right. Amazing. Incredible.
The metaphor makes so much sense. And I think not only for leaders in organizations, but for those listening today, this is kind of like running a practice. There's a lot of being in the eye of the storm, running a practice.
There's so much uncertainty that, you know, that it can feel like there is. Yes, we have structure and tools and systems and things. But it is, you know, it's a game of experiments and trying things and you're having to really stay true to who you are.
What was the question you said? The question is the two questions you have to ask yourself is who do you who do you need to be?
[Speaker 1] (20:21 - 20:27)
Who do I need? Who do I need to be next? Yeah.
And what do I need to do next? And what do I need to do next?
[Speaker 2] (20:27 - 20:30)
So it's around being and doing.
[Speaker 1] (20:31 - 20:37)
When you're in complexity, you can't ever say this is exactly where I'm going to land.
[Speaker 2] (20:38 - 20:38)
Right.
[Speaker 1] (20:38 - 20:56)
Like this day on this, you know, in this year, it's going to look exactly like this, which goes a little bit contrary to a lot of the visualization and types of techniques and things that people tend to recommend that you do. And I'm not saying do those things, but I'm saying be realistic in your expectations.
[Speaker 2] (20:57 - 20:57)
Right.
[Speaker 1] (20:57 - 21:48)
Focus on a direction rather than a specific destination. Okay. And when you focus on the direction, you can think of it like, how do I reposition my compass to make sure I'm on track to reach that direct your head in that right direction.
And when you head in that direction, you also leave yourself open to new possibilities and opportunities. Whereas if you're so focused on getting to a particular destination, you can inadvertently shut out all of these wonderful things that you could discover or that could come your way, then you could actually turn into something even better. So, but yeah, so I'm very focused on who do you need to be next?
What do you need to do next? Because that will change and evolve. And you've just got to stay ready to change and evolve with the context around you.
[Speaker 2] (21:49 - 22:18)
Amazing. And so I'm imagining, Suzanne, you've got people that, you know, those who are really good at being centered. And at the other end is there are those who are not good at being centered.
So is this a sort of measurement or something that you kind of do to help people work out where they are? Like I'm imagining self-awareness is a big part of work, isn't it?
[Speaker 1] (22:19 - 22:53)
So there's the inner engagement that you need to do, but then there's also outer engagement. So what I've, the Centering Star talks about, there's a number of different arms on the star that come out. At the moment, I'm using other people's diagnostics to measure different elements.
But my plan is to actually work towards having a meta-diagnostic that sits over the top that helps people work out where they really need to focus next to balance themselves out and to do what's right for right now.
[Speaker 2] (22:53 - 24:33)
This is incredible work, Suzanne. This is so on point for what people are going through and what they've just come through. You know, I think we can all feel like anyone in any industry can say they've come through, you know, feeling this level of uncertainty and trying to feel centered, whether it's for their family or their, you know, their staff or, you know, just for themselves.
So just being able to try and navigate through that. So there's only going to be, you know, what is that saying? The only thing that's constant is change.
So, you know, I think you've got a really bright future with this work and I wish I had this back when I was a leader in corporate. I think this would really help, you know, trying to manage, you know, just not only your own journey as a leader, but just trying to help others through it because sometimes you might not be able to, you know, if we don't always have, say, someone like you come in and roll that out in a whole organization, which is probably what is going to need to happen for many. But, you know, even just being able to help work out with staff and your teams to help them, okay, well, this is I can identify which part of this model and it's the beauty of your thought leadership so that you're translating what seems all murky and not working out where do I need to spend my energy, effort and time so that I can not only help myself, but I can help others through it.
[Speaker 1] (24:33 - 26:08)
Yeah, and what I'm finding a lot of my coaching clients are really coaching, mentoring, training clients, because what they'll say to me is the reason they like working with me is that I'm, I can do pure coaching if people want that. But what they keep asking me for is a mix, so that we actually move between being a coach, and then we'll do the transition into there's a mentoring opportunity here and they want to explore and more of a mentoring conversation, the different ways in which you might be able to approach some things. I mean, I've lived through a lot of my own things like I've had some great successes, but believe me, I've also had my own fair share of failures, or I've learned so much through those.
And then, you know, different frameworks and concepts and tools that help people reflect and feel safe to actually try and experiment themselves to find what fits for them. So it's bringing all of that together in a way that people can actually use it. And if it means that I can stop someone from being on the roller coaster like I was, where you sort of going up towards man out, then you come down and then you go back up.
And then all of a sudden, just slam into is it a big damper at the end of the roller coaster, if I can stop someone from hitting that and just being able to have a gentler ride, my purpose will have been fulfilled.
[Speaker 2] (26:10 - 26:27)
So, Suzanne, in terms of your practice, what does it look like? Do you have a team? Like, do you have a marketing team and a, you know, accounting team and the receptionist?
What does your practice look like? Who do you have working with you?
[Speaker 1] (26:27 - 28:22)
So my core practice is myself and Janella, my absolutely amazing assistant. Janella and I have worked together for about two years. And that was a really good choice.
I think I made to bring her in. And she'd been trained to support a different type of practice. But over the last couple of years, we've learned how to work together.
She's very much part of the rhythm of what I do every week. So it's her and I, and then I have, I will, like, I've started using a fellow on Upwork to help me with some of my graphic design. I've got someone reworking on my PowerPoint templates at the moment.
So I look for people that I can then go back to for bits and pieces when I need. I had some help with my podcast. But yeah, so it's looking at how do you have that sort of core team, the people that help you and then I've got what I would call trusted partners or collaborators that we might work on a bigger project together or Samantha Rush and I've developed a game together.
So we've got our own separate practices. But we did an accreditation for this fantastic tool called Indicator of Ambiguity, which we both loved, but we wanted to do something different with it. So we developed a game together where people can get an awareness of their own tolerance of ambiguity through actually playing the game.
And then they actually practice the skills that help you build tolerance of ambiguity. And we know the evidence base is really strong around gamified learning. So we decided it was a good way for people to let their teams have fun, but to actually get real value from it.
[Speaker 2] (28:22 - 29:11)
So good, so clever. I love how you just keep innovating and finding new ways to take your practice and your expertise in different ways to consume it and to help people get those insights. I think it's all about finding clever ways to help people learn and engage and the old ways don't necessarily under default anymore.
So, you know, you've had an incredible journey with your practice so far and you've got a big one ahead with your book coming, diagnostics coming, you know, this is really taking your practice to a whole new level. What have been the biggest learnings in your practice? If you had to think like, you know, top two or three, what have you learned about your practice or yourself or, you know, that have been big insights for you?
[Speaker 1] (29:12 - 32:16)
Get the right type of support early. So I did get, I've worked with coaches in different ways since I came out by myself. And I certainly learnt things from them that were valuable.
But what I kept finding is they didn't understand my world. And that was, so I think if I was to do something differently, I would look for someone who understood my world much earlier. And that makes a huge amount of difference.
And although you learn things from other people, if they don't understand your world, they can get you doing things that either aren't aligned with your brand or they're not aligned with you and your values. Or they're trying to push you and then you feel this, oh, that doesn't feel like me. I know, I know I need to do this, but that's not who I am.
And that's not the type of person that I want to be. So really getting clear about who you are, what your values are, you're trusting your own gut. Like you've obviously, if you're in a market that you know really well, trust what you know about that.
I have to keep going back and reminding myself, hang on a minute, when you were back in one of those jobs, what were you like? Because I've got a big issue with fear of other people's opinions and I don't want to annoy people. And I think, I don't want to annoy people, I know how busy they are.
And then I have to sometimes think about, well, hang on a minute, was it really annoying to get that? Or was it actually a reminder, oh, I need to do something about that. I forgot about it amongst the 10 million other things I needed to do.
The other big lesson for me is very early on, I did something called competing values framework. And I did an assessment on my business, which was me, and realized that there were certain aspects of my business that were going to be a weak point for me. Which was things like doing all the financial admin, because I'd rather be delivering or thinking or engaging with people.
And so if I had it all to do again, I would put structures and systems in place for that really early on. Because what happened is, it didn't really matter, because it wasn't that busy. And then it took off.
And then it took off for a sustained period of time. And I didn't have those, then it was just, you just backpedaling all the time. And I've had to do a lot of cleaning up.
And just sucks a lot of energy. So I think if you can get those systems in place and get those supports in early, and get the expert advice, don't be afraid to pick up the phone and talk to your accountant, rather than wait till it all goes in and then go, help, I'm a bit lost.
[Speaker 2] (32:18 - 33:20)
Accountants are so valuable. This is, you know, this is, for a lot of us, this is, that's not our game. Like you, where we go, we just want to be in a training room, I want to be in coaching sessions, you know, but they do come back, you know, around to buy you if you haven't got that support there or know how to get those systems in place, good bookkeeper, accountant, all those sorts of things.
That's great advice. I love the practical advice. Because it, it's very stressful, if you're having to come back and navigate through all that.
Plus, often, if, when, if, when it comes back around, you're right in the middle of, you know, working on something, you know, you're working on that next stage of your practice is a lot of effort. It's going to get over here and do that. But I'm trying to do that.
So you're in this, you know, two speed. Your practice is in two different speeds. The two things you've got going on to deal with.
[Speaker 1] (33:21 - 34:55)
And part of that is working out what is it that you really need to do? And, but there are some things that yes, you still need to get in and look at, yes, this was for this, and this was for that. But I've worked out with Janella, my assistant now, which bits that she can do.
So she does a whole heap of stuff for me. And then I go in and then do the finishing bits. And I think investing the time in developing, if you do have a VA, really invest that time in meeting with them, opening up to them, making sure they know who you are, what you like, what you don't like.
Give really helpful feedback and be really honest and open with them about why something isn't your brand or that if you see something and go, I can't describe exactly what I do want, but I can tell you what I don't want sometimes. And just focus on their development as well. I know Janella will obviously, we often talk about because she puts my newsletter out every week after I write it.
It's like her professional development every week. She reads it and she puts it into practice. And yeah, so I think investing in that relationship is really important.
Because if you can get a long term relationship with someone, it makes it a lot easier because you can open up and you can be clear about what you do and don't want, but it's a two way thing with them as well.
[Speaker 2] (34:55 - 36:23)
Yeah, that's right. Particularly if you're dealing with offshore team members, you've got to just invest that little bit of time with them, even if it's 15 minutes each morning with a huddle, particularly while they're getting underway with you and onboarding that first 90 days. But, you know, the churn that you can experience otherwise of going, you know, sometimes our expectations might be a little bit high or we're expecting them to be 100% independent, but it's a different way of working a little bit.
But once you've got it, you've got it. Like they won't go anywhere if they're treated well, you know, if you've got the right setup. And if you know, it's coming back to your own skills as a leader of how to help them to perform well.
Because otherwise the churn can kill you in trying to find the right person. But like I think what you've done with Janelle has been phenomenal. And it's a challenge sometimes for those who are going, I'm trying to juggle all this stuff, I've got family, I'm trying to run my programs, I don't have time to talk to my VA, I just need them to be able to do it.
But, you know, you'll end up in churn because they go, I don't know what I'm doing. And, you know, they don't feel confident, the work won't get done, and then you're back to square one again. But for what you've been able to create with her, and now she's, I think from memory, amazing.
[Speaker 1] (36:24 - 37:39)
It's not all me. It's also she's, she's wonderful. Like she is.
She's so hardworking, and she's so keen to learn. She's studying. She's doing other things as well.
She's, yeah, but I, and I know that I'm the problem often, you know, it's not her, it's like, I might not have spent the time I need to, to make sure things are clear. I'm not. And what I've been learning is I'll do things like, if I'm starting a new coaching client on the coaching platform, I realized why am I doing this all of the time.
So I started doing it and then you're recording the steps that I did. And then I gave it to her and then I get her to test it the next time we start a coaching client. And then I look now, that's something that she can take over.
And I said, well, can you put that in the procedure form? And, you know, we're trying to get a system in place so that we're capturing all of that information about how to, how to do things in the way that suit my practice. But you have to put the effort in.
And so most of the time when, when things don't work quite the right way with Janella, it's because I haven't put the work in. It's not because of Janella.
[Speaker 2] (37:39 - 39:09)
Well, I'm super impressed. You know, you've got, you're a real example of a great team that's been able to make it work. And, you know, it can be sometimes where, you know, sometimes we've got those ladies I talk to and they can feel like when you've got offshore staff, it's out of sight, out of mind.
But you, you know, you've got to work together and you've done an amazing job with that. And, you know, because you can pick up, it often is us, it's 99% of the time, something's not working out. Okay, I assumed too much or I didn't explain that properly.
But over time, the compounding of that, you know, 1% every day, you know, it's just, okay, I'll tweet that, can you update the template, do a little video. So we've got that, all that investment of all those, you know, those little pebbles to put in the jar, like, oh, there's another one and another one, you know, over time, that's so powerful. And just being able to, because if something ever happened to Janella Touchwood, I'm touching everything for you, you've got continuity.
-
And, you know, you could get some help quickly, and people know where you're up to. So what's next? If people want to work out where you are and how they want to get in touch with you and what you're working on next, where should we be heading, Susanne?
[Speaker 1] (39:10 - 39:42)
Well, I've got some things on my website, and in the near future, there will be more. But if they want to know a little bit more about what we do about helping people embrace the unknown, there's a white paper that they can download on my website, they can connect with me on LinkedIn. All my contact details are all over everything, I think, website, LinkedIn, you can book a chat, if you'd like to have a chat, always interested in expanding my network and getting to know more people.
Yep. Yeah, they're the main ways that people can connect.
[Speaker 2] (39:42 - 40:35)
Oh, well, fantastic. Susanne, thank you so much for sharing all your incredible expertise. In particular, your inspiring story around how you, you know, built up your practice, but being able to leave corporate, you've led the journey that so many, for those who are listening, Oh, God, I want to be Susanne when I grow up, to be able to make that shift.
But we're really excited for you with your practice, we know the work that you're putting in and the thought leadership that you're doing and the innovation and you're a real trailblazer with this expertise that you're sharing. And it's so relevant for the future of work. So, so I'm super excited for you.
I love the work that you do. And, and we can't wait to see what happens. So you'll have to come back.
When you've when you've hit your straps with global domination, we'll have you back. Okay.
[Speaker 1] (40:36 - 40:41)
I just want to say, you've been a real game changer, I think, for my practice as well.
[Speaker 2] (40:41 - 40:42)
My pleasure.
[Speaker 1] (40:42 - 41:23)
And it just, you really get my world. And you understand that. And it's made a world of difference to me and my practice.
And it's helped me get clarity about what my practice needs to look like in the future and what I'm working towards. And I know when you're in any business, you have ups and downs. And it's just makes just means so much to know that you're in my corner and that you're there, supporting and cheering me on.
And then if I have a question, you know, you're always just so helpful. So thank you.
[Speaker 2] (41:24 - 43:01)
That's my pleasure. I'm, you know, it's, this is, this is a tough game. And if it was, you know, it was easy.
So it's saying it was easy, everybody be doing it. But you know, there are the highs of celebrations and so much fun. But we can't, you know, I always think and you're the same with your own clients, your clients say the same thing about you how caring and compassionate and kind and understanding you understand their world.
And, you know, you know, how valuable that is for them. So, and, you know, when you're going through complexity and change and uncertainty is, you can't just be there for the fun stuff. You know, it's the, it's the, it's when you're going through, you know, some tough times is that that's, you know, we talk about personal brand and how things show up when things aren't going to plan sometimes too.
And I know you do that for your own clients. So it's my pleasure. I'm so glad you're part of our community and you're really valuable member of our community.
So as all of it, we love, you know, we love working with you. We love your thinking. You always show up, you know, just in so much.
You're inspiring. You're really inspiring for us all to, to learn from. And I learn from you all the time and read your blog every week.
I'm like Janelle, I go, okay, how do I implement that? That's interesting. But we're so excited for you.
I can, you know, we can all see the journey that you're on and we can't wait to see what you do next. And so for those who are listening, jump on, follow Susanne's work and yeah, we're really cheering you on. We can't wait to see what the next 12 to 18 months brings for you.
Thanks Jane. Really appreciate it.
Most of the guests interviewed are current or alumni members of the Women With Influence community. Click here to find out more
