Episode 72- Cultural Transformation Expert, Author, Speaker with Yvette Bethel

27 June

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In this episode of the Jane Anderson show, my special guest is Yvette Bethel. She is a cultural transformation expert, author, speaker, and advanced emotional intelligence practitioner, Yvette Bethel was recognized in 2020 and 2021 as one of the top 88 global thought leaders in trust by Trust Across America, Trust Around the World.

She understands the complexities of organizational ecosystems and how to effectively bring the corporate vision to life. From 2020 to 2022, she was recognized by Thinkers360 as the number one global thought leader in ecosystems and a top five thought leader in culture. She uses her deep insight into organizational ecosystems and transparent communication style to support her clients using the proprietary Interconnectivity, Flow, and Balance® methodology. According to Thinkers360 she is one of the Top 150 Women Thought Leaders to Watch in 2022.

Yvette shares how she helps leaders understand their organizations as ecosystems equipping them with fresh strategic approaches to traditional cultural challenges that impact profitability

Take the time to listen to Yvette today.

You can find Yvette on LinkedIn.

Key Takeaways from Today’s Episode:

The episode begins with Jane Anderson introducing her podcast, "The Jane Anderson Brand New Show," catering to experts aiming for greater impact, influence, and income in their businesses and careers. She emphasizes the importance of building trust and connection with clients. Jane shares her excitement for the upcoming interview with Yvette Bethel, a cultural transformation expert, author, and speaker. She highlights Yvette's achievements, including being recognized as a global thought leader on trust and her innovative methodology called "interconnectivity, flow, and balance." Yvette's extensive experience in Fortune 500 companies and her role as CEO of Organizational Soul are also mentioned.

Jane welcomes Yvette to the podcast, expressing admiration for her work and accomplishments. She invites Yvette to share her journey to becoming a consultant and thought leader, prompting Yvette to reflect on her decision to leave a corporate job after her father's passing and pursue her purpose-driven path as a consultant.
Yvette recounts her transition from working for a Fortune 500 company to becoming a consultant. She shares a pivotal moment when her father's terminal illness made her realize the importance of pursuing her life's purpose. After his passing, Yvette made the bold decision to leave her corporate job without a concrete plan, driven by a determination to fulfill her potential. She reflects on the challenges and uncertainties she faced during this transition but emphasizes that she hasn't looked back since.
Jane inquires about Yvette's current consulting practice, particularly focusing on the types of clients and issues she deals with. Yvette explains that her practice involves two main aspects: facilitating transformational work for clients and collaborating with partners to develop and distribute her thought leadership. She elaborates on her engagement with clients who are navigating cultural challenges during growth phases or mergers, highlighting her unique approach centered on organizational ecosystems.
Yvette elaborates on her business model, which involves a combination of delivering services directly to clients and collaborating with partners to disseminate her expertise. She discusses the licensing of her programs, profit-sharing arrangements, and collaborative ventures aimed at customizing her thought leadership for specific client needs. Yvette emphasizes the importance of aligning with partners who share her purpose and values, facilitating mutual growth and impact.

Jane acknowledges the significance of Yvette's partnership model for consultants who rely on thought leaders like her to serve their clients effectively. She appreciates Yvette's role in providing tools and solutions to support their work, highlighting the value of collaborative arrangements in meeting diverse client needs.

Yvette further explains the revenue models and intellectual property sharing arrangements with her partners, emphasizing the importance of preserving their individual purposes while leveraging her thought leadership. She mentions licensing programs, profit-sharing, and collaborative product development as key components of her business model.
Jane introduces Yvette's book, focusing on her proprietary model "Interconnectivity, Flow, and Balance" (IFB), which serves as the foundation of her thought leadership. She expresses curiosity about the model's workings and prompts Yvette to provide an overview. Yvette briefly explains the IFB model as comprising three natural laws inherent in all ecosystems, regardless of their organizational culture. She underscores the model's transformative potential in understanding and reshaping organizational cultures.

The summary captures the introductory segment of the podcast, highlighting key points such as Jane's podcast theme, Yvette's journey to consulting, her business model, and the IFB model discussed in her book.
Yvette delves into the concept of organizational ecosystems, emphasizing the significance of understanding the structural elements that influence behaviors within these ecosystems. She explains how the laws of interconnectivity, flow, and balance operate within organizations, quietly shaping behaviors and interactions. Yvette highlights the limitations of solely focusing on interpersonal dynamics in addressing cultural challenges, stressing the need to address structural elements for sustainable transformation. She introduces the concept of interconnectivity from a structural perspective, underscoring the importance of identifying and addressing the structures that uphold behavioral patterns.
Jane acknowledges the complexity of managing cultural transformation in multinational organizations with diverse external influences. She prompts Yvette to discuss the impact of external networks on internal networks within businesses. Yvette explains how cultural differences across countries can manifest within organizations, affecting operations and decision-making processes. She emphasizes the need to align internal policies and practices with external environments to ensure organizational effectiveness.
Yvette elaborates on her approach to cultural transformation within organizations, highlighting the importance of a systematic and collaborative process. She outlines the steps involved, including diagnostic assessments, creating a culture code, and establishing systems to support cultural sustainability. Yvette emphasizes the value of engaging with clients in a thoughtful and deliberate manner, ensuring readiness for transformation and minimizing potential harm. She shares anecdotes from her experiences, illustrating the complexities and challenges of navigating cultural change initiatives. Yvette underscores the iterative nature of the process, which may involve pauses, adjustments, and ongoing engagement over several years to achieve meaningful transformation.
Jane reflects on the importance of managing discomfort in the process of cultural transformation and the potential impact on broader organizational ecosystems. She inquires about strategies for addressing unexpected challenges and disruptions during transformation initiatives. Yvette acknowledges the need to balance discomfort with the broader impact on organizational dynamics, highlighting the iterative nature of change processes and the importance of fostering trust and psychological safety.

Yvette discusses the role of trust within organizational systems and its impact on group dynamics and behaviors. She explains how trust influences the formation of informal groups or cliques within organizations, serving as a mechanism for releasing tension and dissatisfaction. Yvette highlights the importance of addressing trust issues to prevent negative behaviors and divisions within organizations. She emphasizes the interconnectedness of trust and the IFB model, emphasizing the nonlinear nature of trust-building processes and the challenges of navigating cultural change. Yvette concludes by underscoring the need for leaders to facilitate conversations, address underlying issues, and foster trust to achieve sustainable cultural transformation.
Yvette discusses the importance of building trust within organizational contexts and the challenges associated with vulnerability, particularly in professional settings. She highlights the intricacies of trust-building processes and acknowledges the limitations imposed by workplace dynamics and individual personas. Yvette introduces the concept of the "spiral of trust," emphasizing the collective nature of trust development within ecosystems. She underscores the significance of honoring individual differences and fostering supportive relationships to cultivate trust over time.
Jane reflects on the power of collective trust-building processes and the role of supportive relationships in facilitating organizational change. She acknowledges Yvette's unique approach to partnership and collaboration, which prioritizes compatibility and mutual understanding. Jane highlights the parallels between Yvette's practices and the principles of community building and leadership development within professional contexts. She encourages listeners to explore Yvette's book, "Interconnectivity, Flow and Balance," as a valuable resource for understanding these concepts and their applications beyond traditional workplace settings.
Yvette shares insights into her approach to building a sustainable consulting practice, emphasizing the importance of establishing trust-based relationships with clients and collaborators. She discusses her method of prioritizing compatibility and mutual understanding before engaging in formal partnerships or projects, likening the process to a marital commitment. Yvette highlights the benefits of her relationship-centric model, which allows for deeper connections and meaningful collaborations over time. She underscores the value of aligning goals and values to ensure mutually beneficial outcomes in professional engagements.
Jane explores Yvette's decision to self-publish her book and the motivations behind retaining ownership of her intellectual property. Yvette explains her preference for self-publishing, citing the flexibility and creative control it affords her in developing derivative works and maintaining the integrity of her content. She emphasizes the importance of aligning publishing decisions with broader goals and values, such as fostering transformation and impact. Jane applauds Yvette's holistic approach to content creation and dissemination, which prioritizes purpose-driven messaging and ecosystem alignment over commercial considerations.
The conversation delves into Yvette's experience with self-publishing and the considerations behind this decision. Yvette explains her rationale for choosing self-publishing to maintain control over her intellectual property and align her content with her broader goals and values. Jane acknowledges Yvette's courage and dedication in navigating the publishing process and producing a polished, professional book that reflects Yvette's expertise and commitment to her message. They discuss the challenges and rewards of writing and editing a comprehensive book, highlighting the importance of staying true to one's vision and maintaining integrity throughout the process. Jane expresses admiration for Yvette's conviction and the freedom afforded by self-publishing, emphasizing the shared value of freedom in their respective work and communities.
Yvette expresses her willingness to support the community in understanding and building ecosystems within their practices, underscoring her commitment to collaboration and shared growth. They conclude the conversation with mutual appreciation and a desire for future engagement.

Full Show Transcript:

Hi there, my name's Jane Anderson and this is the Jane Anderson Brand New Show. It's the podcast for experts who want to have greater impact, influence and income for their businesses and careers. As experts, we know that people buy from people and work with people who they know, who they like and who they trust.

So I'm so glad you're here because it's that time again now to really amplify how you show up in the world. Hi there and welcome to The Jane Anderson Show. I am so thrilled that you are here today and to be listening to this exciting interview today.

But before we get started, I'm going to share with you a little bit about what's happening around the place. We're doing a lot of work with Women with Influence at the moment. We've come to end of financial year, going through all the successes, all the learnings and preparing, heading into this new year and also working with my one on one clients as well.

I work with a lot of men, too. So it's not just women, but it's all about being able to create that practice that you want to be able to do that work that you really love to do and to work with the corporate clients that you really want to work with and create that freedom and fulfillment from your work and your lifestyle. So today I have a very, very special guest and she is a cultural transformation expert.

She's an author and a speaker, an advanced emotional intelligence practitioner. She has been recognized in 20 and 21 as in the top 88 global thought leaders on trust. And she works with CEOs and boards to help leaders understand their organizations as ecosystems, equipping them with fresh strategic approaches to traditional cultural challenges that impact on profitability.

She totally understands the complexity of organizational ecosystems. This is her absolute mastery. She was recognized by Thinkers 360 as a number one global thought leader in ecosystems, top five thought leader in culture.

She's created this really unique methodology, which is called interconnectivity, flow and balance. And she's been, according to Thinkers 360, which is how we met. So she is one of the top 150 female thought leaders to watch in 2022.

So I happen to also be on that list, which was how we came across each other. And we've had some amazing conversations around her expertise. Yvette is also a Fulbright scholar.

She's got more than 20 years experience in Fortune 500 companies and followed by 16 years as the CEO at her business called Organizational Soul, which I just love the name. She works with mission based organizations where culture is the opportunity to strengthen performance and profitability. She is the host of Evolve, Reinventing Leadership, Building Freedom Cultures podcast.

She is, she keynotes, she's keynoted at the Nexus EQ conference, Harvard Medical School, Leaders Worth Following conference, all around the world. And please allow me to introduce to you a very special guest today. I'm so thrilled that she is here, Yvette Bethel.
So, hi, Yvette. Thank you so much for being part of the Jane Anderson show and the podcast today. I'm so excited to be able to speak with you and thrilled to have the opportunity to to spend a few moments with you.

You are truly extraordinary. The work that you are doing, the books that you've written. I've got questions around this today.

Yvette, I've read out your bio and all your background, you know, the work that you've done featured in the Thinkers 360 community, which is how we met. Yvette, are you happy to, for the ladies that I have, mostly women who listen to the show and or they're watching maybe on YouTube and when they listen, they're mostly women who have their own consulting practices and doing work, whether it's within Australia or globally. I'd love to know, can you tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming a consultant and thought leader?

And how on earth did you get here? You're amazing.

[Speaker 1] (4:35 - 7:55)
It's been a crazy journey. Well, it's a pleasure to join you, Jane. And when you ask me that question, it makes me think back to when I used to work for a Fortune 500 company.

And I always said to them, I was never afraid of being fired. So I always said things like, you know, I'm going to open my own business one day. And, you know, this is temporary.

And but I always acted like I was the corporate person. So at some point I decided to leave. And at that time I was responsible for eight countries in the Caribbean and for HR.

So all the HR country heads reported into me. And I decided then there was a whole sequence of events because it was always in my heart. I always felt this was my purpose.

And I wasn't sure what I was going to do or how I was going to do it. But I certainly knew I had to go. And so what triggered me was that my father passed away.

He had cancer and we were all sitting around the bed one like a day or two before he passed away. And he started to plead with the doctor to resuscitate him if he goes into a coma. And the doctor said, and my father's not that type of person.

He doesn't plead or he wasn't that type of person. And the doctor said, no, you're at the final stage and I'm going to let you go. And in that moment, I realized that he felt that he didn't live a life that was complete.

He felt like he had something else to do. And in that moment, I made a decision that I'm not going to die like that. No, I'm going to I'm going to do everything that I came here or I was born to do.

And so after his death, there was just a sequence of events. And one day I just walked away and no one expected that from me because I'm a planner. And, you know, you can't you can't be more organized than me and all these things.

And I just walked away with no plan because I realized because of the intensity of the role, I realized that if I didn't do that, I was going to be trapped in this cycle of busyness. And I would never get to it. So I had to walk away without a plan because I didn't have time to get what I was traveling every other week.

Right. And so then the journey began, you know, because I wasn't ready. I hadn't planned it.

I shouldn't say I wasn't ready. I know I was ready. I hadn't planned it.

And ever since then, I haven't looked back.

[Speaker 2] (7:57 - 8:27)
Incredible. And so today, now where your practice is at, we sort of talk about a practice as in, you know, you have minimal staff. We don't necessarily try to build a big business empire.

We like just ourselves, you know, pretty minimal team. We run pretty lean. Can you tell us a little bit about the type of work that you do today and the clients that you work with and some of the problems that you go in and help them with or the solutions that you bring for them?

[Speaker 1] (8:28 - 12:07)
Oh, sure. There are two sides to my practice. There's the side where I'm doing the work.

Right. So out facilitating and. I'm out facilitating transformation.

And then there's the other side where I'm creating. I do the work because I want to test what I've created. So for the doing the work part, I use my IFB model, which is my proprietary work.

Yes. And I predominantly work with clients that at the stage in the business where I know because this is a group of consultants, you know, there's a point in the business where they're shifting from growth to expansion. Yes.

And they realize that the culture is inhibiting that shift. You know, it could be through structure. It could be through the way people behave or how leaders leave, whatever the case may be.

They usually at some point where they realize that they have to do something differently, and it's not about bringing in more tech or anything like that. It's the people. And I get called in for that.

And then I also get called in if there's a merger of two completely different cultures. OK. And most mergers don't really take that into deep consideration.

But because and that becomes why a reason why you end up with two cultures operating in the merged organization, because they didn't take deliberate action to bring it together and create perhaps another culture or let the dominant culture take over in a way that people don't feel they're being taken over. So so when when clients want to be really conscious about how that merger happens so that they can preserve what they've done with the culture already, then they they bring me in as well. So those are that's on the side of the business where I'm engaging and using the thought leadership work.

And then on the other side, I have a lot of partners where we develop depending on their interests. So I am collaborating with a college professor who's turning the thought leadership work into a college course that can be sold to professors. I'm working with an e-learning specialist that develops courses.

I'm working with someone who produces games. I'm working with someone who works with the military. So I have lots of partners.

And for different parts of my work. And all we do is, you know, take the thought leadership work and really tailor it and customize it to their needs so that they can build their practice. Because for me, my purpose is important, but their purpose is also important to me so that they're not just selling my work.

They're selling what it is that they are purposeful about. And that's one of the things that I try to achieve in the integration process.

[Speaker 2] (12:07 - 12:57)
Wow. And it's such a fantastic model because, you know, I think sometimes for us as consultants or as you're building your thought leadership, sometimes you can really only see the model. You can only see is that, oh, well, I've got to do the thought leadership and I've got to get out and deliver it.

And then as I grow, you know, maybe I bring on contractors. But you've got a different model here. You've got a model where you're the creator, you're the thought leader.

And yes, you deliver some. But instead of contractors is that you have partners who are the distributors of that work. And you have is it like a licensing type thing or do they profit share or how does that sort of work if you have all of the above?

[Speaker 1] (12:57 - 13:31)
Yeah, I have like programs that I license. I have products and services and programs that we profit share. And we share the intellectual property.

If they base something new that I didn't create on my work, because a lot of people that I work with are excited about the approach that I take to organizations as ecosystems. Yes. So, you know, I work with people that are excited about it.

Yes.

[Speaker 2] (13:33 - 15:33)
I love that. And it's a good reminder too that there are people out there that do rely on people like yourself. And for those who listen to the podcast that are thought leaders is that there are I think sometimes it's easy to when you're around a lot of thought leaders or if you hang out with thought leaders is that you think everybody's kind of like that.

But there are a group of people out there that actually don't want to do the thought leadership. They love what you do. Right.

They just need to be able to serve their customers and their clients. And they need those tools. And they're relying on you to understand their needs and keep creating.

And, you know, you can only do so much. So being able to build that partnership arrangement with some of them, I think is a really clever model. You talk a little bit about if I can go to your book.

So for those if you haven't come across Yvette's work, this is Yvette's book and her thought leadership and her proprietary IP, as you say, which is around her model, which is around interconnectivity, flow and balance. And the subtitle of the book is a values-based framework for reinventing leadership in uncertain times. This is a beast of a book, Yvette.

This is we have 400 odd pages. This is extraordinary thought leadership that you have created. What was it that it was?

Did you start doing a lot of this work and cultural transformation, which you were talking about with mergers and acquisitions? But, you know, this is work that you have gone on. This is the proprietary work that you're delivering now.

Are you happy to tell us a little bit about the IFB model that you've created and how it works? Sure. And it's, you know, here.

Well, let's see how long you've got. This is 400 pages. But if you're happy to share a little bit, because it really is fascinating.

[Speaker 1] (15:33 - 18:43)
I'm the elevator version, the speech version. Where shall I start? It's such, you're right.

It's such a big thing. But I'll just say a little bit about the model and how I got to it. The model is called interconnectivity flow and balance.

And what it is, is three natural laws that work within all ecosystems. Whether the ecosystem is dysfunctional or functional, these laws are present and operating. So if you have an environment that's high on control and it's highly political, the laws are working there.

If it's a different kind of innovative kind of culture, the laws are at work. It doesn't matter what the culture is about. These laws are present.

And so the book really gets into it because we can turn our cultures around if we understand the operating system behind it. And it's like a computer. I think I talked about it in the beginning of the book, where you have the operating system that's quietly running all the programs.

This is what these laws do. They quietly run whatever program you stick in there. And so for leaders to understand their organizations as living ecosystems that are operating according to these rules that you've set is very important because a lot of times, coaches and consultants attempt to solve these cultural challenges through coaching and interpersonal transformation to leadership, those kinds of things.

But there's another layer that holds the behaviors in place, which is structural, that needs to be addressed in order for the sustainability of the transformation to occur. So that's why when you have training and everyone's like, wow, that was a great course and I have lots of new ideas. And then they go back to work and they go right back into the same habits that they had beforehand because the system is not allowing them.

It's stronger, it's bigger, it's deeper, and it's not allowing them to implement what they've learned. So they kind of go back to the programming of the system that they're already in. So what this does is I look at interconnectivity from a different perspective.

Yes, there's an interpersonal perspective that's very important, but there's also a very important perspective on structure where we need to pay attention to the structures that are holding the behaviors in place.

[Speaker 2] (18:46 - 18:47)
And sorry, go ahead.

[Speaker 1] (18:49 - 18:50)
You can ask a question.

[Speaker 2] (18:50 - 19:21)
Oh, I find this so fascinating because I'm not an expert in systems at all, but I find it so fascinating how they affect each other. And you talk in the book about the internal networks and external networks and the influence that external networks have on those internal networks. I find that really fascinating.

Are you happy to share a little bit of insight on that?

[Speaker 1] (19:21 - 21:19)
Yeah, sure. You have internal networks and relationships within a business. And depending on the country that you're in, for example, they can operate very differently.

Like I worked in an international organization when I was working full time. And with eight different countries involved, each country had its cultural, external to the business, idiosyncrasies. And you can see them play out within the organization.

So like in one country, their government and people valued education. So another country, they valued labor and just making sure that every organization had a union and these types of things so that their values showed up very differently. And it impacted how we did business in that country.

Because in that country, we always had to interact with the union. So in every single country, the external environment had an impact on the internal environment that caused us to be unable. And this is how I learned this.

We were unable to, what we called at the time, harmonize policies so that the same policies applied to each country. Right. That was impossible.

So in every case, we had to find a way to implement the policy in a way so that it aligned with the external environment and the internal corporate culture. Right. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (21:20 - 21:50)
And something like that, to be able to work with an organization, if they're operating in eight countries and you're having to work on a cultural transformation for them, these aren't things that happen quickly. These must be large pieces of work. To do something like that with the clients that you're working with, they're global multinationals.

And how do you do that all on your own with working with them? And how long does something like that typically take you?

[Speaker 1] (21:52 - 25:13)
Well, one of my values is that I'm not going to do all of the work because they need to learn to do it for themselves. And so what I do is once I go into the organization, I take them through a process where over time I create multiple teams and a system within their organization that can support the sustainability of the culture. So we set up the...

I do a diagnostic, the typical kinds of things that people do. I diagnose and then we create a culture code. Because a lot of times organizations have core values that are espoused, but they're not the living values.

They don't form the structure upon which the organization operates. So they have something called the espoused values that are on the wall. And the real values that are operating happen because they're not paying attention to culture and the alignment with the espoused values.

And so we go through a process of really going in on looking at the diagnostics. And usually I use multiple sources. But I love to talk to people because I not only want to see data, I want to feel the culture.

And it comes alive in conversations and seeing the different perspectives that the, what do you call it? The exploratory kind of data-driven methodology. It just can't give you that.

So I talk to people and sometimes I use both. It depends on the culture. And I don't take on any client.

I really take a long time in going back and forth and talking with them. Because one of my reasons for that is because I don't want to do any harm. Sometimes in the beginning, what I found was they said they wanted it.

And perhaps a board was saying, do this because this is what you need now. Or they didn't really want it. And then we start to open up, I guess, what they have.

And they're like, oh, we don't want this. This is too scary. And so I'm very slow in the process of getting to understand if they're ready for it.

Then we do a diagnostic. Then we do the cultural code. And then we start creating the system that will create or recreate the culture.

Because we're not really fixing it. We're actually creating something new and using the strengths that they have to pull it off.

[Speaker 2] (25:16 - 26:16)
So incredible, Yvette. I love that you use so many. First of all, I love that you're slow to start with.

I think that that's clever. And if I think about some of the conversations that we have in our community, it's while you're trying to build your practice, particularly if you're in your early stages of your practice, you're trying to just get things moving quickly and hurry up and get clients and do all these things. But it does take...

As you say, cultural transformation work, it's having a big impact for an organization and the people in it. So I love how it's sometimes a bit counterintuitive, but it makes perfect sense. Because like you say, and when I was thinking about it, I'm thinking that there are some stages throughout the process that you may speed up or have to slow down again because you have to bring so many people on the journey as part of that, yeah?

[Speaker 1] (26:17 - 28:24)
Oh, yeah. We had this, when you said that, there's one example that came to mind that this... We did the diagnostic work and we were moving into redefining the core values and that type of thing.

And just before we could move, I went through the process of sharing with the leaders feedback that was specific to them. And I tried to be delicate because I realized it. And I know that, and what I do is I don't give them information in writing first because I know that that triggers the amygdala, that they get a hijack.

And so I just have a conversation. Just me and you, we go to lunch or something offsite and we have a chat. And that's when I kind of measure if this is going to do any harm.

And in one case, I sat with this executive and she seemed okay. And we were having a conversation, the same tone that we are having right now. And that night she called the owner of the business and used so much profanity.

She totally got triggered. And then the next day she called and did it again. And then on Monday, there was another version of it.

And so, yeah. Now, I didn't even share some of the really difficult stuff because I had a feeling she would be triggered because you tend to know different types. There are people who never want to be wrong or seen as making a mistake or doing something inappropriate.

And she seemed that way. And it came out in the interviews that she was having. And it was quite interesting.

[Speaker 2] (28:25 - 28:35)
So what did you do with it? Did you end up continuing on or did you work out that they weren't ready to work with you?

[Speaker 1] (28:36 - 29:44)
Well, the owner of the business was fine. And so we continued until COVID happened. And then we took a break because there was so much uncertainty.

And it was just everyone refocused. But then we started up again. And it's interesting.

Each time we started, this person brought me in. So it's a process. In that case, I don't know that it was harmful because I look at harm.

I know that people need to be uncomfortable for change to happen. But I also take a look at whether the impact on other people would be something deeply damaging. So you have to balance the discomfort that you cause or create with the impact that it has on the broader ecosystem.

[Speaker 2] (29:45 - 30:13)
Yes. And so in that case of it, sometimes I'm imagining that there may be project pause that you may get a year or two in and then you hit something that you didn't expect. Or I guess you're doing your diagnostics to pick a lot of those things up really early as much as possible.

I mean, this is deep work that you're doing with people. And you're there for some time, yeah?

[Speaker 1] (30:14 - 30:16)
Yeah, two, three years.

[Speaker 2] (30:16 - 30:17)
Two, three years?

[Speaker 1] (30:17 - 30:19)
Yeah, it can be.

[Speaker 2] (30:20 - 31:46)
So Yvette, there's something you talk about and we talked about it back when we first spoke. And it's sat on my mind and I thought a lot about it, which is around the role of trust. You talk a lot about trust in your book and you talk about particularly what that looks like at different levels in the organisation.

And you talk about, particularly if you're going through change, that level of psychological safety that people have to be able to go through that. And when we spoke last time, you talked about, and I can't remember if you said that this is one of the laws, but it was around if it's a positive culture to be going through change, you said there'll always be these sort of groups that there's positive sort of levels of trust, I think you were saying. But regardless, you said that these groups or the interconnectivity or the way these sort of, I guess, clicks sort of will pop up.

You said if there's no trust there or the trust isn't coming up, it will show up somewhere else, but often in a negative way because it's trying to find that balance. I thought a lot about that after you spoke about it last time. Are you happy to share a bit about that?

Is that kind of one of the laws that you talk about?

[Speaker 1] (31:47 - 35:58)
It's not a law, but it's part of the system. Because all systems, as you correctly said, they balance themselves dynamically. If the leadership is not consciously identifying the needs that are showing up within the ecosystem.

So in organizations where there's dysfunction, you can find clicks. And clicks come about for many reasons, but a lot of them happen because people need a valve. They need to open the valve.

It's a release. And so you end up with these closed connections where they kind of just complain. And that, it has to be closed because they have to be able to trust the people that they're talking to with this information so that they don't have job security issues.

And that is serving a purpose of release, but it's also creating a division. And when you start creating divisions where you have these small informal closed groups that you call clicks that are, they're just complaining and that negativity is just like, it's layering, they're layering it. That can create lots of, a lot of distrust because people need the outlet and they're not getting it formally through the structure of the organization and the ecosystem.

But because they don't have a way to change anything, it just sits there like this static thing that becomes bigger and bigger because that's how emotion is. You keep layering it if you don't find a way to release it. And so complaining is something that's a static process.

And the only way to move it would be to have a system in place or leaders who are aware of these things and that can facilitate not only the conversation, but the addressing the situation with some kind of solution. Without a solution and continuous complaining, the trust just erodes and erodes, it's deconstructed. So yeah, trust is at the heart of the model, the IFE model, because as I said earlier, you can have dysfunction and the laws will work.

So trust is the defining factor for the IFE model. And working toward that takes a lot of time because IFB as well as trust, both of them are nonlinear processes. You take two steps forward and then someone's habit kicks in and it's like, oh, we're back to square one.

And then you take one step forward and two steps back and it feels like, oh, we're not making any progress. You go to this nonlinear thing that can be, if you're not aware that that's a natural part of the process, you can be demoralized by it or you become overwhelmed by it sometimes. So it's important to build a trust first, but it's not always possible to do that.

[Speaker 2] (35:59 - 36:27)
Yes, because I'm guessing that to build that trust, that means vulnerability from the leaders to be able to create enough authentic connection to be able to get people to feel like they're heard and then to be able to provide those solutions. That can sometimes feel like you're giving people a personality transplant. Well, not really.

[Speaker 1] (36:27 - 36:45)
I mean, I never seek to change a personality. I seek to equip people with the skills they need to navigate their cultural norms. You know, because we're not in the business of personality transplants.

[Speaker 2] (36:46 - 37:00)
No, vulnerability is a scary thing, right? Like that can be quite daunting if they're trying to work out, well, how do I get through this phase? Like if trust is at the core of it.

[Speaker 1] (37:01 - 37:45)
In the workplace, you're not going to find a lot of vulnerability and people don't aim for that. I think that's more in a personal relationship. I find there may be certain levels of vulnerability if there's a crossover between friendship and co-worker kinds of relationships.

But people tend to have their work face on when they're at work and they relax at home. Some people attempt to be a different person, although that's not technically possible. It's just a facade.

So I don't remember where I was going with this, but anyway.

[Speaker 2] (37:47 - 37:56)
So it's not always just, not necessarily about vulnerability because of that facade, because we've got that other face on, yeah.

[Speaker 1] (37:56 - 39:22)
Because they're levels of trust. And that's one of the things that I talk about outside of the book. It's something that I call the spiral of trust where we want to improve the trust, but we can't make people trust each other.

So we're attempting to improve the trust collectively. So what that means is some people will trust more and other people will trust less because when you're looking at it one-to-one and trying to pressure people into trusting and that type of thing, that's through constantly bringing it up because that's a form of pressure, trying to address it. And the intent is fine.

But in reality, it doesn't work that way. Everyone won't be at the same level of trust for everyone on the team. And that's fine.

So when you look at it collectively at an ecosystem level, you see that there will be differences, but we want to collectively raise the trust level, honoring people's choices because people may choose not to trust different people. And that's okay because you can't force trust. The minute you try to force it, then you're not trusted as a facilitator.

[Speaker 2] (39:24 - 39:46)
Yes. That's so powerful. And to be able to, it makes perfect sense to be able to put, you know, to work on a collective as opposed to an individual level, because for those who aren't maybe, you know, who have low trust, they naturally are low trusting type people.

You've got others who can sort of support them and carry them a little bit through that process too.

[Speaker 1] (39:47 - 39:53)
Right. And you work with the relationships. So the people that they trust can help bring them along.

[Speaker 2] (39:54 - 39:55)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (39:55 - 40:05)
As opposed to, you know, one facilitator doing it. You know, you can tap into the power of the collective.

[Speaker 2] (40:05 - 43:13)
Yes. That's a powerful insight. I've never thought about it that way, but it makes perfect sense.

Yvette, in terms of your practice, well, actually, before I say anything, so if you're wondering where all this is from, so just a reminder. So for Yvette's book, which is called Interconnectivity, Flow and Balance, it is an incredible read. And I think even if, what I think this is also valuable for, but for the ladies that are in our community, we do have some men who listen and watch as well.

But what I think is powerful here is what I've been reading around your work, Yvette, is that we talk about, as part of building a practice, a big part of that is how you build a community and how you build a tribe and how, which is about you being a leader because quite often for us as experts, we're so busy building the leadership capability and the tribes and the community of our clients. And sometimes we forget that actually, we've got to build a community. If we're going to create a sustainable practice, our job is how are we going to create a culture?

And whilst these people aren't necessarily in a workplace every day, there are still these key principles that you talk about around interconnectivity, flow and balance, and just how you might have, if I think about those in our community, I think about what are some of the principles to think about in here around your own tribe and your own community? Because otherwise, without that tribal community, we become so transactional. We just focus on selling.

We lose the focus on impact, the transformation that we're taking people through and why we're really here and around the purpose why we're here and to be able to do that work we really love, not necessarily just about processing. It's not about processing transactions in the thought leadership space. So for those, if you want to have a look at Yvette's book, I would highly recommend downloading it.

You can buy it on Amazon, which is where I got mine. So there's some fantastic thought leadership in there. Yvette, if you think about, for those who are in our community, we have lots of, as I said, women and men who have built their practices or on the journey.
Some are starting, some have had their practices for some time. We have some in our community, people who have won speaker of the year, educator of the year in all their spaces. If we think about particularly for women, what advice do you, you must have women who are consultants ask you all the time for your advice, I'm imagining, because the clients you work with, your thought leadership, all that sort of thing.

What advice do you have if someone's listening to this, particularly a female consultant in their practice, what advice do you have if they're listening to you thinking about how do I, how would I build my practice if I like this model and how you've built your practice, Yvette?

[Speaker 1] (43:16 - 46:03)
What I do in building my practice is I use the IFB model and the first step in it is to build trust. And so when I approach someone to collaborate with me or partner with me, I don't approach them as a partner or a collaborator. I approach them as a friend or someone interested in supporting them with their growth.

And I do that so that I can get to know them and they can get to know me because once I start partnering with someone, it's kind of like a marriage. And I want to get to know, in one case, I spent a year helping one of my partners get their business aligned and the culture transformed and I did it gratis. But in return, what I've gotten back has been far more than I gave.

I mean, the enthusiasm, and I did it with no expectation or understanding of what this would grow into. I just did it because it felt like, it felt right. And so in that case, it's blossomed into something that's covering a lot of Europe.

And so it really ended up working out and they're creating materials. I trained them on my work over time. They got all the certifications and now they're producing or co-producing products.

So the model starts with the relationship, the interconnectivity, and I want to understand compatibility first. And everything's still a risk, but at least I start to understand their core values, how they operate, how I operate, am I compatible? And then it automatically kind of emerges into something because I'm always aware of their purpose or what their goals are.

And whatever we end up doing aligns with both partners.

[Speaker 2] (46:04 - 46:16)
Right. And that's because you really have a global practice. So this is regardless of whether they're in Europe or the US or wherever.

[Speaker 1] (46:16 - 46:17)
I think that's really, yeah.

[Speaker 2] (46:19 - 47:00)
And that makes perfect sense because when you're dealing with the type of practice that you have and across those cultures is that to be able to align that before you can even talk about the type of work or anything like that is... I like what you said, it's like a marriage. You've got to be able to know, can you be open with each other?

Can you be transparent? Because you're putting your work out into the world to know that it's going to be in safe hands too, as well as is it going to support this person? Because if you can get that fit right, then everything else becomes so much easier, I guess.

[Speaker 1] (47:00 - 47:44)
Yeah, and doing it this way, you can also decide how far you're going to go with them. You know what I mean? So it may be that you end up doing something, but based on how they operate and the compatibility, it may be something where you license as opposed to co-produce, you know what I mean?

Yes. So it's a process and it works, it's slower, and it doesn't, I guess, drive the funds right away, but on the back end, it's much deeper and I go for deeper.

[Speaker 2] (47:45 - 48:28)
Yeah, I can really sense that. And Yvette, which actually I should have mentioned before, and it was interesting, your book, and we have a lot of women in our community, think about with publishing their book, most of them have all published books or if not on that journey. This piece of this work that you've got is, you've also published your book and you've self-published it, which is fantastic.

I don't mind how people publish whatever way, but are you happy to share it? Because it's one of the most common questions I'm asked, do I self-publish or do I go with the publisher? Are you happy to share what made you decide to self-publish?

[Speaker 1] (48:29 - 49:32)
Yeah, yeah. The primary reason I did it is because I wanted to own the intellectual property to all my books. And so, because my intent was to create derivatives of the book, and so a lot of the products that I've created are derived from the book.

They've gone a bit further than the book over time, but I didn't wanna go through any legal hoops to create derivatives. I'm creating another textbook now for academia and I'm using different parts of different books that I've created over time. So I don't wanna have to, I'm happy that I did that what I did because now I don't have to go through this whole approval process, what I can and cannot do, or having to rewrite the book.

[Speaker 2] (49:33 - 49:58)
Yes, yeah, exactly. And also, you mentioned before we started recording today a bit about tapping into the type of book that you actually wanted the freedom to write it, your book, just your own knowing around, yeah? It's not having to deal with an editor who's focusing on a certain goal.

Are you happy to share a bit about that?

[Speaker 1] (49:59 - 51:16)
Well, I do understand that when you have an agent or a book deal, they have the freedom to make changes to your material. And for me, that would have lost the integrity of what the material was about if they had something that was not compatible with mine, which may be, let's sell this thing and let's sell it hard. And I'm like, how dare you?

And sales are fine. That's not why I created the book. I created the book because it's part of a bigger goal, a bigger purpose, which is about transformation.

And I also didn't want the pressure of having to sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, because now I have to do it because that's the deal. So there were lots of reasons why I decided to publish and I've never regretted it.

[Speaker 2] (51:17 - 52:02)
Never regretted it? Yeah. Yeah, because when you're dealing with a publisher, they're just focusing on which bookstores or the airports that it's going to be in and how many sales and you get your sales data every week and are you on a New York Times best?

Well, here in Australia, we typically the Australian bestsellers list and doesn't end up here. But I love that thinking is that you've got a bigger picture in mind is that you've got and hence, you're an expert in cultural transformation and ecosystems. You've got your own ecosystem that this actually needs to fit into.

Right. And it serves a higher purpose than just a book on a bookshelf to be able to sell X amount of dollars.

[Speaker 1] (52:02 - 52:03)
Right.

[Speaker 2] (52:03 - 52:03)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (52:03 - 52:31)
And to me, that would have been selling my soul. Just the amount of control I just didn't want. So and I know that there are hybrid models now where it's a combination where you can own your intellectual property and but you pay a much greater fee.

So there's lots of book publishing models since I started all of this.

[Speaker 2] (52:32 - 52:53)
Yeah. And it's you're a great example of it and of someone who's written. I think sometimes people think that, I don't know about self-publishing.

Is it still going to look good? Is it still going to look professional? Is it still going to polished?

And yours is a testament to, yes, absolutely.

[Speaker 1] (52:54 - 52:57)
Oh, you don't know what I went through with that.

[Speaker 2] (52:58 - 53:04)
It's world class. And I can imagine 400 pages.

[Speaker 1] (53:05 - 53:22)
Oh, it took me years to edit because I had so many levels of edit. Because first it came through as a stream of consciousness. It's just like, let me just write down everything.

And then I went back and researched and organized it. And oh, it was a lot of work.

[Speaker 2] (53:23 - 54:55)
It's a huge job. So yeah, I really want to acknowledge you for your book and particularly that you've self-published it because I think that that takes a lot of conviction. And it's a daunting thing to put all these things down on paper.

But to be able to actually stay in your power and know, no, it will lose its integrity. I've got to write this book. It's the right book.

It's the right message. Got the right content. This is who I am.

And this is what I'm here to do. And having that conviction around that. And the freedom, the big one is the freedom that you can do what you need to do with it, which is fantastic.

It's one of my biggest core values, freedom. Freedom, is it? I think we've got that in common, Yvette.

And I think a lot of the people who will be listening to this will totally empathize with you. That's the name of the game. Absolutely.

Yvette, thank you so much for sharing all your expertise today. You are doing some incredible work. For those who are listening or watching, if you're watching this on YouTube and they'd like to follow you or keep up to date, and they're as fascinated as I am in the work that you are doing, what are they best to do?

Are they best to jump on your website? Do you have a newsletter or connect on LinkedIn? What would you like them to do?

[Speaker 1] (54:56 - 55:31)
They can connect on LinkedIn. They can find me there, Yvette Bethel. I have a few websites.

One of them is the consciousorganization.co or orgsoul.com or orgsoul.com. So that's either one will get you there. And I have a lot of websites, so I won't name them all.

[Speaker 2] (55:31 - 56:57)
That's okay. We'll start at LinkedIn and then we go up in there. Okay, fantastic.

Thank you so much, Yvette. I think about if I reflect in our conversation today, you've been very so generous. And the work that you've put into your book and your thinking is fascinating.

I've got the words that I've written down here, being mindful of the laws, regardless of the type of community that you have and the organization that you have. I've also written down things. You exude calmness and patience.

And you play the long game is what I heard today. And I really admire that about you. And I think that that's something that for a lot of those people, if you're building your practice, it's scary.

You've got everything on the line. But we do talk about playing the short and the long game. And the long game is patience and purpose, staying on purpose.

Not trying to, we're not trying to hustle or hurry or anything like that. I think your calmness and this patience that you exude and being on purpose and that intent is something that we can all really learn from you. And you're a testament to what I think is an incredible woman of influence.

So thank you so much for being part of our community today.

[Speaker 1] (56:57 - 57:12)
Yeah, thank you too. And if I can support the community with helping you to understand it as an ecosystem and building it from that perspective, I'm happy to do that with you as well.

[Speaker 2] (57:13 - 57:18)
Fantastic. Thank you so much, Avette. We hope to have you back again one day soon.

[Speaker 1] (57:18 - 57:23)
Oh, I look forward to it. Take care.