Episode 81- Grief Therapist Cait Wotherspoon on Supporting Grief in the Workplace
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Most workplaces have a policy for sick leave, parental leave, and annual leave. Very few have a clear plan for what happens when an employee loses someone they love.
That gap is exactly where grief therapist Cait Wotherspoon works. A psychotherapist based in Penrith, in Sydney's western suburbs, Cait has spent close to two decades helping individuals move through grief, and increasingly, helping organisations figure out how to support employees who are grieving while they're still expected to show up and do their jobs.
In this episode of The Jane Anderson Show, Cait shares how she moved from nursing and teaching into grief psychotherapy, what she's learned from working inside businesses ranging from engineering firms to veterinary practices, and why she's cautious about a new trend: using AI to recreate conversations with people who have died.
This article distils the conversation into a practical resource for business leaders, HR teams, and anyone supporting a colleague, friend, or family member through loss.
Who Is Cait Wotherspoon?
Cait Wotherspoon is a psychotherapist and grief, loss, and bereavement counsellor who has run her private practice for almost 20 years. Before that, her career path took an unusual route: she trained as a registered nurse, specialising in mental health, oncology, and palliative care, before moving into primary school teaching and adult literacy education, including teaching newly arrived refugees.
That combination of clinical, educational, and lived experience shapes how she works with grief today. She has also trained in art therapy and sand play therapy, and her practice draws on decades of hands-on experience rather than academic theory alone.
Cait's own losses have informed her specialisation. She experienced a miscarriage in 1982, at a time, she says, when almost no one wanted to talk about it because "it wasn't a baby yet." She has also nursed family members through cancer and supported close friends through terminal illness. These experiences, combined with her clinical background, led her to build a practice specifically focused on grief.
Her current program and forthcoming book, Creatively Grieving to Rediscover Joy, reflects the core philosophy behind her work: that grief is a natural, ongoing part of life, not something to rush through or hide.
From Nursing and Teaching to Grief Psychotherapy
Cait describes her career as something she mapped out at age seven, when she decided she wanted to be a nurse, a teacher, and a psychologist. She has now done all three, plus trained as a psychotherapist and art therapist.
Her early nursing years were spent in a psychiatric hospital, followed by years specialising in oncology and palliative care, including nursing her own father through lung cancer. That clinical grounding gave her firsthand exposure to death, dying, and the way families cope (or struggle to cope) with terminal illness.
When she moved into teaching, first in primary schools and then in adult literacy programs with refugee communities, she encountered grief and trauma from a different angle: watching children carry the emotional weight of their families' experiences, and adults navigating loss of home, identity, and community.
By the time she opened her private practice in 2003, grief had become the clear focus of her work, not because it was a gap in the market, but because, as she puts it, "nobody wanted to talk about death or dying."
Why Organisations Are Turning to Grief Experts
For most of her career, Cait worked primarily with individual clients. That's shifted. She now regularly receives calls from business owners and HR teams who don't know how to support an employee after a death.
"I've had quite a few businesses calling me and saying, what can I do for them? And how can they be helpful and support people coming back into the business?"
This shift reflects a broader change in how organisations think about employee wellbeing. Wellbeing used to mean mental health support and physical health initiatives, things like fatigue management or return-to-work programs after injury. Grief support is a newer, less-discussed piece of that puzzle.
Cait points to several workforce pressures driving this:
An ageing population, meaning more employees are losing parents and older relatives while still working full-time
Gen X leaders in the "sandwich generation," simultaneously raising children and caring for elderly parents
The compounding stress of holding a senior role while also managing personal loss
What to Say (and Not Say) to a Grieving Colleague
One consistent theme in Cait's work is that grief support isn't one-size-fits-all. She's been called in by business owners who are more distressed about "getting it wrong" than the grieving employee is about the loss itself.
Her guidance is straightforward:
Grief looks different for every person: some want to talk, others don't
It's okay to say you're not sure what to say, rather than avoiding the person altogether
Respect if someone isn't ready to talk to a professional yet, readiness matters more than urgency
Check in with the people around the grieving person too, since they're often more anxious than the person grieving
In one example Cait shares, a business owner called her directly from a funeral, unsure how to support an employee who would be returning to work after just a few days off. Cait went into the business the next day to speak with the whole team, not just the employee, about how to communicate, what to ask, and what to avoid.
How to Support an Employee Returning to Work After a Death
Cait's approach to workplace grief support isn't about grand gestures. It's about preparation.
Building a Bereavement Re-Entry Protocol
When Cait works with a business, she typically speaks with the wider team, not just the grieving employee. This matters because colleagues are often the ones who feel paralysed, unsure whether to mention the loss, ask questions, or act as though nothing happened.
Her sessions with teams typically cover:
How to open a conversation without pressuring the person to talk
Why some employees may seem "numb" or disconnected in the early stages: this is a normal response, not a lack of care
How to check in periodically, rather than treating support as a single conversation
Why grief doesn't follow a fixed timeline, and re-entry support shouldn't either
Cait also notes how COVID-19 disrupted traditional grieving rituals: hospital visits replaced by iPad calls, funerals restricted to a handful of attendees while everyone else watched on Zoom. That shift, she says, has made grief harder to process for many people, and workplaces are still catching up to what that means for returning employees.
Grief in High-Risk Professions
Grief support in the workplace isn't limited to caring professions. Cait has worked across a surprisingly wide range of industries, including engineering firms, where she says she's encountered leaders with a level of emotional intelligence that challenged her own assumptions about the sector.
But some professions carry a disproportionate, largely unaddressed grief burden.
Why Veterinary Professionals Face Elevated Risk
Cait has worked with veterinary nurses and notes that their training includes little to no guidance on processing grief, despite the fact that helping animals "pass" and supporting grieving pet owners is a routine part of the job.
She points out that veterinary surgeons have one of the highest suicide rates of any profession, a pattern confirmed by the Australian Veterinary Association's own mental health research, which cites suicide rates for Australian vets several times higher than the general population. For a closer look at how organisations can support high-risk, high-empathy professions more broadly, see our related article on supporting unpaid carers and caring professions.
Cait's observation is that grief in these roles is compounding: veterinary staff aren't just supporting grieving pet owners, they're often personally attached to the animals themselves, particularly as pet ownership has become more emotionally significant for Australian families over the past decade.
The Growing Demand for Mental Health Support in Organisations
Beyond individual workplace incidents, Cait points to a structural problem: the mental health support system is stretched thin, and demand keeps rising.
EAP Demand Then vs. Now
According to Cait, Employee Assistance Program (EAP) usage has changed dramatically. Prior to around 2018–2019, EAP providers typically expected around 1% of an organisation's workforce to use the service. That figure is now closer to 5%.
She attributes part of this shift to workforce demographics: Gen Y now makes up close to half the workforce, and younger employees are generally more willing to seek mental health support than previous generations.
The practical consequence, Cait notes, is long wait times, sometimes up to nine months to see a counsellor or psychologist. For someone navigating acute grief, that kind of delay can leave a significant support gap, which is part of why organisations are increasingly looking outside traditional EAP channels for support.
Should Businesses Use AI to "Recreate" Deceased Loved Ones?
One of the more striking parts of this conversation is Cait's response to a growing trend: companies building AI-driven "digital versions" of people, using their voice and recorded responses, so loved ones can continue to "talk" to them after death.
Her initial reaction was concern.
"When I first saw this, I thought, oh my goodness, that could be so damaging for the people if they're by themselves."
Her reasoning is rooted in how grief actually works. In the early stages of loss, she explains, a person is often numb and in shock. Their brain is trying to process an entirely new reality: how to exist without someone who was central to their identity. Constant access to an AI version of that person, she argues, risks feeding "magical thinking", the wish for "one more day", rather than supporting the difficult, necessary process of adjusting to the loss.
She draws a clear distinction between this and something like looking at photographs, which she describes as a healthy way to maintain a "continuing bond" with someone who has died. A photo doesn't answer back. An AI recreation does, and that, she suggests, is the risk.
Cait's view isn't a blanket rejection of the technology. She believes it should, at minimum, be used under professional guidance, and likely isn't appropriate in the early stages of grief at all.
Scaling a Practice: From 1:1 Sessions to a Group Program
Cait's shift toward organisational work runs alongside another transition in her practice: moving from one-on-one client sessions to a scalable, online offering.
She's been operating at client capacity for years, and says the demand for grief support, combined with her own limits as a sole practitioner, pushed her to develop Creatively Grieving to Rediscover Joy, an online program combining weekly themes with creative exercises (art-based and otherwise) to help participants process grief without being rushed through it.
Meet the Team Behind the Scale
Cait is candid that this transition hasn't been a solo effort. She credits a small support team for making it possible:
A social media manager who plans and executes her content
A virtual assistant who manages her weekly newsletter and website updates
A business coach who has guided her through the shift from solo practitioner to scaled program
She also acknowledges the learning curve of delegation, as a self-described creative, non-linear communicator, she's had to get better at clearly articulating what she wants so her team can execute it accurately.
Cait's move from solo practitioner to scaled program mirrors a path many consultants and coaches face. If you're weighing the same shift in your own practice, Jane Anderson's Women with Influence community works specifically with B2B consultants and advisors navigating this stage of growth.
Cait's Advice for Practitioners Starting Out
Toward the end of the conversation, Cait offers advice for other counsellors, psychotherapists, and practitioners considering a similar path:
Don't let fear, of success or failure, hold you back. Cait admits she's felt both.
Accept that you won't resonate with everyone. "I'm not everybody's cup of tea, and they're not mine."
Get a good coach and a good supervisor. Business clarity and clinical support are both essential.
Lean into lived experience. Clients, she says, want a real person, not just academic credentials.
Be visible. Cait notes that a huge portion of her client growth has come from social media, sometimes from content she didn't expect to resonate.
Frequently Asked Questions
What should I say to an employee who has just lost a loved one?
There's no single script. Acknowledge the loss simply and sincerely, avoid pressuring them to talk if they're not ready, and check in periodically rather than treating it as a one-off conversation.
How long should bereavement leave be in Australia?
In Australia, compassionate leave (also called bereavement leave) is a National Employment Standard: employees, including casuals, are entitled to two days per occasion when an immediate family or household member dies. Individual awards, enterprise agreements, or employer policies may provide more. See the Fair Work Ombudsman's compassionate and bereavement leave guidance for full entitlement details.
Why do Employee Assistance Programs (EAPs) have such long wait times?
Demand has risen sharply in recent years. Cait notes usage has grown from around 1% to roughly 5% of workforces, while the pool of available counsellors and psychologists hasn't kept pace.
Is it healthy to use AI to talk to a deceased loved one?
According to grief therapist Cait Wotherspoon, this carries real risk, particularly in the early stages of grief, and should only be considered, if at all, under professional guidance.
What industries does workplace grief support apply to?
Cait has worked across a wide range of sectors, including engineering, veterinary practices, and other caring and non-caring professions alike. Grief affects employees regardless of industry.
Where can I learn more about Cait Wotherspoon's "Creatively Grieving to Rediscover Joy" program?
Visit Cait Wotherspoon's website, or find her on Instagram and Facebook under Cait Wotherspoon.
Conclusion
Grief doesn't stay home when an employee returns to work, and increasingly, businesses are recognising they need a plan for that reality. Cait Wotherspoon's work, spanning nearly two decades and a career that began in nursing and teaching, offers a grounded, practical lens on what genuine workplace support looks like: preparation over improvisation, individualised care over one-size-fits-all policy, and caution around shortcuts, including new AI tools, that promise to ease grief but may complicate it instead.
For HR leaders and business owners, the takeaway is simple: waiting until a crisis hits to figure out how to support a grieving employee is a plan built on hope, not readiness.
Work With Jane Anderson
Want more conversations like this one? Explore other episodes of The Jane Anderson Show podcast, including Episode 87 with Melanie Marshall on building an adaptive workplace culture anEpisode 88 with Rita Cincotta on deliberate leadership. If you're a consultant or advisor building a leveraged practice like Cait's, learn more about Jane Anderson's Women with Influence community.
Key Takeaways from Today’s Episode:
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Jane Anderson introduces herself and her podcast, "The Jane Anderson Brand New Show," which targets experts aiming to enhance their impact, influence, and income in their careers and businesses. Jane emphasizes her focus on helping women elevate their influence and become exceptional advisors, particularly in the B2B sector. She mentions that her audience consists of women with consulting practices, ranging from startups to those with over 20 years of experience. These women are passionate about their work and clients, striving to build the practice and lifestyle of their dreams.
Jane then introduces her guest, Cait Witherspoon, a psychotherapist specializing in grief and bereavement counseling. Cait's diverse background includes teaching, education, and nursing. She has leveraged her expertise to assist organizations in supporting employees dealing with grief, helping them return to work and thrive despite their personal losses. Jane highlights the relevance of this topic, given the current challenges in the workplace, such as an aging population and the pressures faced by Gen X leaders.
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Cait Witherspoon shares her journey, starting from her childhood aspirations. At seven, she knew she wanted to be a nurse, teacher, and psychologist, and she achieved these goals, along with becoming a psychotherapist and art therapist. Her career began in nursing, specifically in oncology and palliative care, influenced by personal experiences with family members suffering from cancer.
Cait transitioned to teaching, working with primary school children and adults, including refugees. Her nursing background often led her to work with children with ADHD or other medical issues, whom she fondly calls "effervescent kids." These experiences deepened her understanding of grief, trauma, and the need for open discussions about death and loss. A personal miscarriage and witnessing friends struggle with terminal illnesses further motivated her to specialize in grief counseling.
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In 2003, Cait established her practice, focusing on grief counseling. Despite initial challenges in attracting clients, she actively engaged with communities and volunteered, building her client base. She notes that many people avoid talking about death and grief, often resulting in clients feeling isolated and "crazy." Cait's role includes helping clients and their friends navigate these difficult emotions and conversations.
Jane highlights Cait's unique approach of "rediscovering joy," emphasizing that Cait's work helps clients move through grief towards finding happiness again. This approach has attracted organizational interest, with companies seeking her guidance on supporting grieving employees and fostering a compassionate workplace culture. Cait's work aligns with a growing emphasis on employee wellbeing, including mental and physical health.
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Cait discusses the evolving corporate attitude towards grief support. Companies increasingly recognize the importance of supporting employees through personal losses to maintain a healthy and productive work environment. She shares an example of a company in Queensland that sought her advice after an employee experienced a traumatic event. Cait 's intervention included educating the company on how to support the grieving employee.
COVID-19 has significantly impacted traditional grieving processes, with restrictions on hospital visits and funerals. Cait observes that the pandemic has forced people to grieve remotely, often through impersonal Zoom calls, which complicates the grieving process and hinders emotional support.
Jane and Cait touch on the diverse industries Cait has worked with, ranging from caring professions to unexpected sectors like engineering. Cait notes an emotionally intelligent engineering business owner as an example, highlighting the wide applicability and importance of grief support across different fields.
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Cait discusses how businesses struggle to support employees dealing with grief. She shares an example of a business owner who called her from a funeral, distressed about how to support an employee who had just lost a loved one. Cait emphasizes the importance of understanding individual grieving processes and providing tailored support. She notes that grieving varies greatly from person to person, and some might not want to talk immediately.
She also talks about working with veterinary nurses, who face significant emotional challenges. Despite dealing with grief regularly due to their roles, their training includes little guidance on managing these feelings. Vets have one of the highest suicide rates, highlighting the intense pressure they face. Cait stresses that grief affects not just those who lose loved ones but also professionals who help others cope with loss, such as veterinarians who often form bonds with the animals and families they serve.
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The conversation shifts to the increasing need for mental health support in organizations. Cait 's work becomes critical in an era where mental health challenges are rising, leading to long waits for counseling and psychological services. Previously, Employee Assistance Programs (EAP) were used by about 1% of an organization’s workforce, but now the demand has surged to around 5%, driven by younger generations seeking support.
Cait discusses her practice's evolution to meet this demand. She explains that she can only see a limited number of clients per week, which led her to develop a new online program called "Creatively Grieving to Rediscover Joy." This program aims to help more people by combining creative activities with grief education, allowing participants to understand and express their grief in constructive ways.
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Cait explains how she has adapted to technological advancements to manage her growing practice. She highlights the importance of having a strong support team, including a social media manager and a virtual assistant, to handle various administrative tasks. This team enables her to focus on her core work with clients while expanding her reach through online platforms.
She shares her challenges and learning experiences in managing this transition, emphasizing the importance of clear communication with her team to ensure her vision is accurately executed. This approach allows her to maintain a balance between providing personalized support and scaling her services to meet increasing demand.
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The discussion turns to the potential use of AI and virtual reality in grief therapy. Cait expresses concerns about the impact of AI-generated versions of deceased loved ones on the grieving process. She worries that constant interaction with a virtual version of a loved one could hinder the natural grieving process, which involves coming to terms with the loss and adjusting to life without the person.
She suggests that if such technologies are to be used, they should be under the guidance of professionals to ensure they support rather than disrupt the healing process. Cait underscores the complexity of grief, where the brain is already struggling to understand and cope with the new reality of loss, and introducing AI could potentially confuse and prolong the grieving process.
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Cait shares a personal anecdote about using photographs to maintain a connection with her late husband, illustrating the ongoing bond with deceased loved ones. She discusses the potential pitfalls of AI-generated virtual realities of deceased individuals. Cait emphasizes the importance of professional oversight when using such technologies, as they could hinder the natural grieving process by creating a confusing and potentially harmful experience for the grieving individual.
Cait offers reflections on her journey as a grief counselor. She advises aspiring practitioners not to fear success or failure, recognizing that not everyone will resonate with their approach. She underscores the importance of having a clear plan and a good support system, including a reliable coach and supervisor. Cait highlights the value of lived and learned experiences, stressing that clients seek genuine human connections rather than purely academic knowledge. She encourages practitioners to embrace their unique qualities and maintain confidence in their abilities.
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In her concluding remarks, Cait reiterates the importance of authenticity and resilience in the face of challenges. She expresses excitement about the potential to reach more people through her expanding practice. For those interested in learning more about her work, Cait directs them to her website, caitwotherspoon.com.au, and her social media profiles on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. She invites listeners to follow her journey and engage with her content, which includes interviews with experts and personal stories related to grief.
Cait 's insights provide a comprehensive view of the complexities involved in grief counseling and the innovative ways practitioners can adapt to meet growing demands. Her approach blends personal experience with professional expertise, offering valuable guidance for both clients and fellow counselors.
Full Show Transcript:
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Hi there, my name's Jane Anderson and this is the Jane Anderson Brand New Show. It's the podcast for experts who want to have greater impact, influence and income for their businesses and careers. As experts, we know that people buy from people and work with people who they know, who they like and who they trust.
So I'm so glad you're here because it's that time again now to really amplify how you show up in the world. Hi there and welcome to The Jane Anderson Show. I am so thrilled that you are here and that you're joining us for today's podcast.
Today I have a very special guest. But before I talk to that, I wanted to share with you a little bit about the type of people who listen to our program and perhaps it might suit you and you might know someone who might like to listen as well. My absolute focus and obsession is helping women to elevate their influence and to really become exceptional advisors in their area of expertise, particularly working with B2B.
So the people or business to business. So the women who come on this program typically have consulting practices and range from startup right through to those who have had their practices for some time. They have typically 20 plus years experience and they absolutely love the work they do.
They love the clients that they work with and they have built on the journey to building the practice and the lifestyle of their dreams. So our guest today that I wanted to introduce you to, she's a really interesting character. So she has had her practice for almost 20 years.
She is a psychotherapist by trade, but she came from teaching and education and then also nursing. She has gone on to become an expert in the space around grief and grief bereavement, particularly counselling and all those sorts of background, but particularly for those who are struggling through grief. But she also has a really interesting side to her practice, which is where she's tapped into organisations who are trying to work with not only to be able to support people who are perhaps going through grief, but in being able to give their team members the skills to be able to work with and support and find the most appropriate way to work with a team member who has perhaps experiencing grief and loss in their life. And how can we help nurture them and look after them coming back to work, which I think is a really interesting time. We have a lot of things going on in the world in terms of the ageing population, Gen Y and Gen X in the workplace, Gen X leaders trying to juggle it all, dealing with elderly family members plus children and the pressures of being a leader as well.
So I really wanted to interview our guest today because I think she's got something really unique that she's still leveraging her expertise as an expert in her space and public market. But the corporate market are really starting to connect with her and to be able to leverage her skills, particularly for organisations looking to retain and support and grow and nurture a really great talent. I also have interviewed her today because I want you to hear about how you can think about, we see a lot of people who are sometimes working in the mental health space and going through experiences of high volume and just physically work trying to fit everybody in.
There's long wait times and things like that. So I think Cait has a really interesting experience and approach in her practice that she has agreed to share today. So our guest today is Cait Witherspoon, and I hope you enjoy the interview today.
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Hi, Cait, thank you so much for being part of the show today. I'm so thrilled that you are here. I know how busy you are.
Thanks for joining us.
[Speaker 1] (3:52 - 3:56)
Thanks so much, Jane. I'm so excited to be here.
[Speaker 2] (3:57 - 4:11)
Cait, you have a really fascinating story. Are you happy to share a little bit about your journey and how it's got you to today in terms of your work as a grief expert? Mm hmm.
[Speaker 1] (4:12 - 8:10)
Yes. Well, I was seven years old when I decided what I wanted to do in my life. And I've actually done it.
I've done it all except being a prima ballerina. I was too short. I wanted to be Margot Fonteyn.
That was first on my list. But then I wanted to be a nurse, a teacher and a psychologist. So I've done all that plus being a psychotherapist and art therapist and sampling therapist.
I sort of said that when I was seven. And then it sort of evolved into that somehow as well. Yes.
So my cousin actually talked me into being a nurse because she was. So I became a nurse. And the first couple of years I spent in Gladesville Psych Hospital, as it was called then.
That was a great learning. I spent a lot of time in the lockup ward there with very ill people. Then I went on to specialise in oncology and palliative care and did the certificate in that and spent years and years in that and nursed my dad, who had lung cancer.
And my aunt sort of had every cancer under the sun. You name it, she had it and she had it taken out. And she was a registered nurse, too.
So it was sort of I wanted to keep talking about these people, but I found it really, really difficult. After nursing, I went into teaching and then I taught primary school and adult ed at Tate. And in Tate, I got to see the refugees like I taught them literacy and numeracy.
And it was really hard for them to understand what our life was like. So it was me learning their life and then learning ours, how much they're expected to fit in. And then in primary school, I saw all the kids with I usually got all the troublesome kids that I call effervescent kids who often had.
Yeah, they were all the kids that had ADHD or some medical problem because I was the registered nurse. And I absolutely loved them because they thought differently to everybody else. They were just brilliant.
And yeah, so the grief around their families and the trauma that they suffered, that sort of sat with me as well. And then because of those careers, I sort of realized that grief is all around us. And I also had a miscarriage in 1982 where I wanted to talk about my miscarriage and nobody wanted to talk about it because it wasn't a baby yet.
So, yeah, so I sort of when I went into psychotherapy, I specialized in grief because I found nobody wanted to talk about death or dying or anything. And one of my really good friends had brain cancer, like incurable brain cancer. And it was really hard for people to talk to her, let alone about her dying.
Right. And then after that, her death. So it's like, I want people to be able to share their stories and share the generations.
Like if you don't keep sharing people, they don't exist, like it's like they die twice. So I really wanted to get people finding their story to be able to share and knowing what to say.
[Speaker 2] (8:10 - 8:13)
And so if we fast forward, sorry, Kate.
[Speaker 1] (8:13 - 8:53)
Yeah, well, then in 2003, I came by and practiced there. Right. Then I started getting, not getting a lot of people.
And then I was talking to people. I did a lot of talking to communities and different things and volunteering for different places as well. So I got a lot of clients from there, but people still aren't wanting to talk about death and dying.
You know, generally my clients come in and say, my friend said, I'm going crazy, so I need to talk to a professional.
[Speaker 2] (8:54 - 8:54)
Right.
[Speaker 1] (8:54 - 8:56)
What they're feeling is grief.
[Speaker 2] (8:57 - 9:00)
Right. And because words to it.
[Speaker 1] (9:00 - 9:17)
And yeah, and the friends are feeling uncomfortable as well. So it's like they don't want to talk about it because they feel uncomfortable. So it's sort of teaching my clients how to be and how to train their friends to be with them as well.
[Speaker 2] (9:17 - 9:54)
And so now today, Kate, you've got this incredible messaging, which is all around rediscovering joy, which is it's you've got the positioning around working with people through grief, but you've got this fantastic promise, I think, where you help people rediscover joy. And for those who are listening, you might be thinking, well, how if she's done this sort of with people who are probably paying for themselves, they're coming to you as clients. How do you make something like this work with organisations?
Like do organisations typically work with someone like you?
[Speaker 1] (9:56 - 10:24)
Yes, I've actually had quite a few come to me, you know, one of our people have had someone die. We don't know how to deal with it. We want them to feel comfortable coming back into the company.
So I've had quite a few businesses calling me and saying, what can I do for them? And how can they be helpful and support people coming back into the business?
[Speaker 2] (10:25 - 12:01)
Right. You know, that's such an evolved way of thinking now, because like you said, the way we used to cope was just not talk about it. So but coming back into the workplace, we've got this shift in thinking around the wellbeing of our people and not just part of wellbeing is, you know, yes, there's mental health, there's physical health for those organisations that might be doing fatigue management, or it might be they've got people travelling or whatever things they do.
But this is a really different part of wellbeing around how do we support a team member who is experiencing grief and how can we all come together to sort of support this person? I think this is a really fascinating because there's a few things going on, right? You've got an ageing population.
You've got Gen X leaders who make up the bulk of the leaders in the workforce. And their challenge is they've got little ones, they're the sandwich generation at the moment because they've got little ones and they've often got elderly parents that they're looking after. So these leaders that are that sort of age is that they're dealing with not only a lot of pressure, but if they're dealing with death and grief, they're under, they're already trying to deal with a lot of pressure if they're in a really senior role, plus children, plus staff, plus all these things, and then trying to cope with loss in perhaps in family.
So they're a really vulnerable group of leaders in organisations at the moment that are perhaps going through this. And you're seeing it across multiple industries, yeah?
[Speaker 1] (12:01 - 12:42)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was one business up in Queensland that actually contacted me. She wanted me to see her employee and I saw the employee and she didn't want to see a professional just yet.
She'd been through a traumatic situation. But she said, I really don't want to talk to you. And I said, that's OK.
It's all right that you're not ready yet. And so I rang back the business owner, the CEO, and said, you know, I would like to present to you and your company what you need to do to support her.
[Speaker 2] (12:43 - 12:54)
Because it's like, yeah, because they're actually struggling more than perhaps the person who's going through their own processing. It's just the people around them who are actually struggling. That's a really good distinction.
[Speaker 1] (12:55 - 14:20)
Yeah. And sometimes the person is still numb. They don't even know what's going on yet, especially with such traumatic things happening around people.
And with COVID happening, it was like, OK, your person is dying in hospital. You're not allowed to see them, but you can contact them via the iPad, have a Zoom to say goodbye. And that's it.
So and then only a few people were allowed at the funeral. That's the whole tradition stuff gone. And the whole grieving, you know, the beginning of grieving starts with the funeral with everybody together saying, I miss so and so, you know, they were in my life because, yeah, because since COVID, we've been told how to grieve, really, you know, here's the Zoom link.
I've been to so many funerals on Zoom, it's ridiculous. And it's the saddest thing ever to see just the close family at the funeral wherever they're having it. And then everyone's on Zoom, you see hundreds of people on Zoom.
And it's just, you know, you just want to hug people and cry with them. And it's just so distancing. And then that creates the distance.
Like now, how do we speak to those people? Because what do we say to them?
[Speaker 2] (14:20 - 14:39)
And Kate, some of the organisations, we were talking earlier a bit about the type of organisations you've worked with. So we're talking sometimes about caring type industries, but sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's those who are completely different.
Who are the types of industries that you've found that you've worked with?
[Speaker 1] (14:39 - 14:57)
Well, I've worked with engineers, which was really interesting because the owner of this business, he was so emotionally intelligent that it was hard for me to think of him as an engineer. I think that's a compliment.
[Speaker 2] (14:58 - 14:59)
Let's say it's a compliment.
[Speaker 1] (15:00 - 15:26)
All his people were the same and it was absolutely wonderful. Wow, what a delight. Yeah, and I've spoken to engineering companies and it's like they think extremely logically, whereas I'm more on the creative side.
So I had to have the logical part of stuff happening. But there were other people in there who were creative as well. Right.
We could have a chat. So, yeah.
[Speaker 2] (15:26 - 15:31)
And for them, though, were they the supporters of a team member coming back to work or something?
[Speaker 1] (15:31 - 16:20)
Yeah, actually, one of the businesses actually rang me from a funeral and an owner rang me from a funeral and said, look, this is horrible. I don't know how we're going to. I think she got three days off to degree and then she had to be back at work.
So he said, I don't know what to do. This is so sad. I don't know how to support her.
So the next day I went in and spoke to everybody and taught them how to support her and answered all the questions as well. You know, like, how do we talk to her? What do we say?
Right. And the thing is, it depends on each person as to how they grieve as well. She might not want to talk in the first place.
[Speaker 2] (16:21 - 16:38)
And Kate, what about other industries? I know we've had to talk about places that people suffer, caring professionals who suffer from some of the challenges around their own mental health and dealing with grief in their jobs. Is that something that you've done some work with as well?
[Speaker 1] (16:38 - 16:59)
Yeah, I've done work with veterinary nurses, which in their training, they don't have any course that is around grief, nothing, nothing of how to talk to people or anything. And vets, veterinary surgeons, are one of the highest suicide rates. Yeah.
[Speaker 2] (17:00 - 18:01)
It must be incredible pressure for them. You know, they're very hard people and really care about animals and pets. Because a big part of their job, I guess, is helping animals pass and having to deal with families.
And we've got 60 percent of the population have dogs, I think, in Australia. And that's gone up dramatically over the last few years. And there's a lot of research behind, I think it's the Pet Council or something in America, which is the whole humanisation of pets.
So we have not just the animal that sits out in the back paddock, you know, how I grew up with my parents. My parents think about dogs like that. My dog, between Kooloo and your dog, there's Kooloo, I didn't see Kooloo, it's a different day and age with animals and we become attached to them.
And I think our vets become attached to them, too, don't they? Yeah, they do. Well, we're part of the family.
[Speaker 1] (18:01 - 18:44)
Yeah, we're part of the family at our vet. And they send birthday cards. And my mum's cousin actually recently, her three dogs died one after the other.
And her vet sent her this beautiful letter saying about, you know, all their life and we'll miss all the three dogs. And it was just beautiful. Yeah.
And grief only doesn't impact the person whose person has died, whose loved ones died. It's like everybody, an animal dies. And it's not only us, it's the vet, anyone that's had any dealings with them.
So, yeah.
[Speaker 2] (18:45 - 21:26)
We've got these professions, sorry, I get a bit emotional, that's really powerful. Just to mention, my dad was a funeral director, as you know, so I'm not an expert in this space, but I've been around it a lot. So I think it's a really important conversation for organisations to think about because I think it's an emerging area of wellbeing.
And I think you're in a really interesting position at the moment with the work you're doing. It's so valuable. And can we go behind the scenes in your practice a little bit to talk about the type of, and you can share as much or as little as you like.
So thank you for humouring me. But you've got a really interesting practice because you've got, for those who are listening, you probably may or may not be aware, but you've got a lot of things happening in this industry with the growth of mental health challenges that people are having. It's not unusual to have sometimes like a nine month wait to work with a counsellor or a psychologist at the moment.
And so people are suffering in organisations. We know that EAP providers, I spoke at the EAP conference before COVID, we know that baby boomers, Gen Y, sorry, Gen X, will be the ones who will hold off on support. But we've got a large amount of people in organisations who typically prior to, well, prior to about 2018, 2019, was that EAP providers provided typically about 1% of an organisation would need that help.
Now that's around 5%. And because we've got a high rate of Gen Y coming into roles that make up a large portion of the workforce, you've got nearly 50% of the workforce, and that's driving that demand for EAP support. And so I think organisations are really in a challenging situation to work out how do we continue to provide this support for people.
And you're now coming into a stage in your practice, because the challenge for someone like yourself, and for those listening, you might be thinking, well, I'm a similar type practice to Kate, in that I'm very one on one, and I'm working at a lower price point than you might be, say, what's seen as an executive coach or something like that, working at $500 to $1,000 an hour. And you're trying to balance your pricing with public market, private market, getting your pricing right, and then also having an offer that you can still support your clients that you're working with one on one, but be able to work out how am I going to serve in a more leveraged way. And so you're working on a new program at the moment, is that right?
Which is a group online space. I don't want to divulge too much. Tell us a little bit about how you've come to this realisation and how it's going to work.
[Speaker 1] (21:26 - 22:56)
We're only allowed to see so many clients per week. And I'm at capacity and have been for years, for a long, long time now. And I'm just wanting to help more people, because there is more grief around.
There is more death than dying. We need to learn how to grieve and how to help people and support people in their grief, not hurry them along. So I want people to learn to slow down and grieve and people be OK with them doing that.
So this program that I'm doing is called Creatively Grieving to Rediscover Joy. I talk about different subjects, but I also give you a creative thing to do to support that. So it's either art based or there's three different things that you need to do each week.
And it's exciting and I want more people to express their grief and understand their grief. So in order to do that, I have to go online to get more people in and see more people, because the one on one is just not enough to support me. So, you know, support my family as well.
So I think it's a great way to get to talk to many as well.
[Speaker 2] (22:57 - 23:39)
That's exciting. So they're going to be on one, but you have a way that people can access you and you can work with 10 people, 100 people, 1000 people. I think this is for people like yourself that are in situations where they've got really high demand.
I think you're really leading the way with what other psychotherapists, psychologists, counsellors and to be able to kind of work out a way. How am I going to be able because this demand is overwhelming and we've got to get better at being able to work with and facilitate because I'm guessing that in the past, sometimes you might have a group program and it might be six people in a room or eight people in a room, but that's just not leveraged enough.
[Speaker 1] (23:40 - 23:42)
And that's right, expertise.
[Speaker 2] (23:43 - 24:05)
So you're really at an exciting time and cutting edge. And I really take my hat off to you for doing this, because it's a scary space sometimes stepping into so much technology and yes, I mean, to run a group public program is quite admin heavy. How are you going to do all this?
Yes, not me.
[Speaker 1] (24:06 - 26:32)
That's the right answer. I have an amazing team behind me, you included, like you are my coach who has led me on this journey and helped me learn who I need as well, because I am a person that can do everything, no matter what. And, you know, burn out really, really well.
So now I have a social media manager who does all my social media. Your socials are fabulous, by the way, for those who are listening, jump on to Kate's socials. She's done a great job.
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, well, I absolutely love my Laura because we have our monthly conversation and she says, what have you written? You know, this month is about so and so, this is what we're going to do.
And she does my social media planning for me, sends me the stuff, I send her stuff, she sends me stuff and it's all done. Magical. We love people like Laura.
Yep, yep. And then I've got Anne, who is my VA, who does my newsletter for me. I send out a newsletter weekly and then she puts it onto my website as well.
And she's doing my Kajabi and all that stuff that I have no idea of. I send her stuff and magic happens. Magic happens.
You just need a good team around you. And I just have meetings with her. Yeah.
And it's just getting clear on what you need as well, because what's in my head, because I'm a creative person as well, I'm not very logical. And the way I speak, sometimes people get a different idea of what I'm saying. So I have a picture in my head and I've got to clarify that and they'll send me stuff.
And then I go, oh, OK, right. To make this clearer for you, I'm going to say that, but I think, oh, OK, that's actually not what I wanted. But, you know, here's an idea of what I want.
So and then there's a bit of back and forth and then, yeah, it's done. But we'll get better at it. It's a huge learning curve for me right now.
[Speaker 2] (26:34 - 27:31)
And Kate, I have to ask you, I find it really fascinating about, from your perspective as a grief expert, there's a lot of discussion with AI and there's a few new companies that are creating these virtual realities of, you know, they're capturing people while they're alive. They have all the, what do you call them? All the things on their bodies.
Yeah, they're creating all the digital version of people and they're capturing their voice and saying all sorts of words. So after a person passes, that people can feel like they can still talk to them, they can communicate with them. So AI and picking up perhaps things that they've said or think or so they're able to talk to these virtual reality versions of someone who's passed.
Do you, in your opinion, think that that will help people through the grieving process or not?
[Speaker 1] (27:32 - 27:39)
When I first saw this, I thought, oh, my goodness, that could be so damaging for the people if they're by themselves.
[Speaker 2] (27:39 - 27:40)
Okay.
[Speaker 1] (27:40 - 29:35)
Sitting with their loved one, just having a chat because they ask them thousands of questions while they're alive. And then any questions the person who's grieving asks them or talks about, that person has an answer. But if you're sitting at home, like when you are in the early stages of grief, you're numb, you're in shock and your brain is trying to make sense of the depth.
Like, how am I going to live without this person? How is it like you have a grief brain that is trying to make sense of your life right now? Because without that person, you feel you don't, you can't exist.
Like, who are you now? You were a wife, a mother, you know, a lover. And now you're a widow.
And that's it. So I think it needs to probably be used by professionals, if at all, because, you know, it would be lovely to speak to them. And that's where the magical thinking comes in and wishful thinking, like, I really wish I could have one more day.
And if you're getting that one more day all the time, what's your brain doing? It's really confusing. It's to heal.
Yeah, and to understand your own grief and understand that you exist in this world without the other person now and that you can. Photographs are different because you can talk to that person because we have a continuing bond with the person who has died. It's in a different way.
You can look at the photo, like my husband's here. My husband is here. That's him at 30, though.
[Speaker 2] (29:35 - 29:42)
I was going to say, is that recent? No, not at all.
[Speaker 1] (29:45 - 30:42)
It's an interesting thing that I've done that. He was only 30 then, so it's an awful long time ago. But he had a massive heart attack at the end of last year.
And I could see it. Yeah, he was in hospital for a long time. And in and out of hospital.
So I could see and talk to his image and know what he would say. So my brain actually said, he's in the hospital. He's in good hands.
I'm OK. So if you've got the person sitting across from you, I think that would be really, really hard to understand that they're dead. You know, it's without a professional saying, if you want to sit with your person now.
And but it wouldn't be in the early stages. I would imagine for myself, because it's really interesting. Yeah.
[Speaker 2] (30:42 - 31:01)
Yeah. What happens where this goes? Yeah.
-
Yeah. I have to ask you with your practice. Tell us what have been your insights or biggest learning from running your practice and what advice would you have from someone who's perhaps thinking about going down this path and this journey into this world?
[Speaker 1] (31:02 - 32:54)
Yeah. Don't be afraid, because my biggest fear. Do you know what?
I was really fearful of being successful and really fearful of not. Right. Everybody hating me.
So, yeah. And that's not OK. There will be love, hate as there is in life.
So I'm not everybody's cup of tea and they're not my cup of tea. So, yeah. So don't worry about it.
Don't worry about what you're doing. Get clear on what you want. Like, I think, get a good coach if you can.
First off, because I've been through quite a few coaches that weren't helpful. But if you can get a great coach, that would be really helpful to be able to get your plan in place, get your business plan going and know what you need on your website, what money you need, what support you need. If you're a psychologist or a psychotherapist or counsellor, you need a good supervisor to support you and confidence.
Be confident that you know stuff and you've lived through stuff. Like all mine is lived and learned experience. And people want you as well.
They don't want the academia. They want you. They'll find you and be the face of your business.
Yeah, because that gets people in, which always surprises me. Does it? Yeah.
Oh, it's really funny because, yeah, people go like, I saw you on Instagram and you're amazing. And I thought it was like a 10 second thing that I did. And it was just a thought bubble that I had that I went on.
And it just clicked with somebody. So you'll always click with somebody. Know that you will.
[Speaker 2] (32:54 - 32:54)
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (32:54 - 33:04)
And it's OK. You've got to fail as well. It's OK to fail.
Don't be afraid. Still scary, but do it. I love that.
[Speaker 2] (33:05 - 33:53)
That's a great Gail. So Kate, so you said, don't be afraid. Get clear.
Sometimes you need a coach to help you to get clear. Have a business plan so you know where you're going. You said, be you.
And even though it's scary, it might be, but don't undervalue your face and who you are. Yeah, I think it's really great. Right.
It's been such a pleasure to have you today, Kate. You've got a really fascinating practice, and I think you're really playing at the pointy end of what people need. And I'm super excited for you that you're finding a way to help get to more people, because I think that's a real challenge for a lot of mental health practitioners and trying to deal with the volume and demand at the moment.
So, Kate, if people want to find out more about your work, if they want to follow you, where would you like them to go?
[Speaker 1] (33:54 - 34:27)
I'm on caitwotherspoon.com.au I'm on Facebook under Cait Wotherspoon, Instagram under Kate Wotherspoon. I'm on YouTube. I do conversations with Kate, which people absolutely love.
I talk to experts in grief and people who have been through grief as well. And you can sign up to my newsletter on my website. I'm also on LinkedIn, but not as much as the others.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Speaker 2] (34:27 - 34:48)
Right. So we'll have it in the show notes. So jump on to caitwotherspoon.com.au. Cait, thank you for joining us today and for all your generosity in sharing your insights and learnings. We can't wait to keep following your journey and wish you every success for the future. Thanks so much, Jane.
Most of the guests interviewed are current or alumni members of the Women With Influence community. Click here to find out more
