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What changes when a consultant stops simply responding to requests and starts shaping the practice she wants?
In this episode of The Jane Anderson Show, I spoke with Cheryle Walker, who specialises in live online: webinars, workshops and remote team leadership that help people connect and work effectively, even if they never meet face to face. When we spoke in 2021, Cheryle had been running her own practice for nearly ten years. She was candid about what it takes to grow a consulting practice on purpose, rather than waiting for the phone to ring.
This article draws on that conversation: why order taking left her feeling exposed, how putting her expertise on paper changed her confidence, and what she says about pricing, hiring and growing without building an empire.
Building a Practice in Live Online
Cheryle started her practice after a career at National Australia Bank. She says she spent nine years there and set up its digital learning strategy and digital learning channels. In a large organisation with a geographically spread workforce, she saw an opportunity to equalise the learning experience. Whether employees were in Olympic Dam, Cloncurry, Far Western Queensland or Sydney, they could connect, network and learn in the same way.
She says she has worked in this kind of field for about 18 years. In the seven years before COVID, she worked with large corporations, mainly in banking, retail, insurance and manufacturing. She helped them structure learning programs, choose technology and run large events. Much of the job was convincing clients that live online could be as good as meeting face to face, not a fallback for a reduced budget.
Then the pandemic arrived. Organisations that knew her work, or had found her on LinkedIn, started ringing because they had to deliver something, in one example in three weeks' time. Instead of reaching out to find clients, Cheryle suddenly had clients arriving in a rush.
Why Order Taking Keeps a Practice Reactive
Cheryle says that until probably 2021, her practice was driven by the market and by whatever people asked her for. That made sense at first, when she didn't yet know where her value lay.
I often say that delivery is selling: do great work and it often leads to more work. It can also lull you into a safe space. Cheryle describes a different experience. "I never felt safe or comfortable," she says, because she was always at the mercy of whether the phone would ring at the end of a project.
She also points out that clients don't always know what they want, particularly if they haven't done this kind of work before. They may ask for something that won't serve them as well as another approach. Her aim now is to act more as a consultant, advising on what will work, than to build whatever was ordered.
The December and January Slump
The pattern was sharpest at the turn of the year. Cheryle says the phone never rings in December or January, so she felt as if she were "crank starting an engine" again in February and March, looking for the first client of the year. Without a book, a program or a model to point to, she would ring contacts out of the blue because she was hungry for work. She also had no discipline around a newsletter, and says she is still working on a regular cadence.
How a White Paper and a Book Helped Define Her Expertise
The turning point came in 2021. Cheryle says the pivotal shift was positioning herself where she wanted to be and understanding her own value and expertise, and she points to working with me as part of that.
She started with a white paper, then wrote a book. She says she had carried her expertise around in her head while hopping from client to client. Putting it on paper meant building models, unpacking and repacking her experience, and finding stories and metaphors. It also showed her the value of her work from several perspectives: the client's, her own and the end user's.
Two things followed, as she describes it. First, she began thinking in clusters of what she does and what programs she offers, rather than only responding when the phone rang. Second, it eased a worry she'd had since early 2020, when many people suddenly became experts in live online. Writing it all down made her realise how long it had taken to build her depth of experience. "I haven't come lightly to this field," she says, and she sums up her point of difference by saying she is "just not vanilla".
Asked whether she was on track for around 50% revenue growth, Cheryle said it was probably closer to 60%. She sees more potential once her clusters and programs are clearer. When we talked through the shifts, the ones that came up were confidence, revenue growth and clarity.
Pricing With Confidence
Cheryle says she has been able to raise her day rate over the past two years without feeling she was fishing for a yes. Some prospects have told her she is too expensive. Before she understood her own value, she says, she would have panicked and dropped her rate. Now she accepts that those prospects may not be ready for this level of expertise, or may not suit her work.
She has also built a network of people who work in live online. When she is busy with higher-level programs, she can recommend a producer at a different day rate for more routine work.
When a prospect is shocked by a quote, she sometimes suggests starting with her book, which she mentions at $30. From there, they might attend a one-day course and work their way up. She sees price as a barrier partly because people don't realise how deep live online is. The assumption is that you buy a webcam, get a cheap Zoom subscription and away you go. That works for some people, she says, but you can do far better with more design thought and strategic thinking about who your participants are, why they were invited, what they expect and how they will behave.
Her example is the common complaint that nobody will switch their webcam on. She asks how the event was communicated, what people expected, what the organisation's culture is around cameras, and whether participants know each other. Often, she says, there are opportunities to start again from the beginning.
The Fears Behind Growth
Cheryle is direct about what held her back. She names several fears:
Rollercoaster revenue. Good times followed by a slump, with no foundation for knowing what to do next.
Fear of success. "I feared success because I thought I wasn't worthy of it," she says. If a client spoke well of her work, she worried about the burden of living up to it.
Fear of new competition. In early 2020, after 16 or 17 years in the field, she worried that, with so many people suddenly becoming experts in live online, others could now do everything she does.
Fear of growth. She isn't afraid of employing people, having led a team of ten, and at one stage eleven, at National Australia Bank. In her own practice, though, she worried about sustaining something bigger than just her and her working day.
Her initial word was "depth": she needed to mine the depth of what she had done and focus on that.
Learning to Delegate
Cheryle says employing her husband gave her an easy start. He had watched her build her practice and knew what she did. It also opened a window on what she can delegate. She describes herself as always having been a solopreneur, with the emphasis on solo, and says she had limited herself that way.
The challenge, she says, is that she has carried everything in her head and has not documented it. She is still working on that. She now sees that if she creates a template and sets things up well, someone else can pick it up. She also wants whoever supports the practice to feel they own part of the work, rather than running around wondering what she wants.
A Sustainable Practice She Controls
"I'm not building an empire here," Cheryle says. She has seen small businesses overwhelm the people running them, and she wants her practice to remain "a work of love": working with clients she loves on the things she wants to do, and steering the size it needs to be.
She names two reasons for being in business. One is the creativity, flexibility and freedom of being her own boss. The other is being able to drive her own income, scaling effort and revenue up or down across the year and not panicking about a quiet month. In corporate, she says, she was always creating her next role and then arguing for its salary. Now she sets her own pricing.
Control matters even when work is demanding. A big contract with a tight deadline still leaves her feeling she is the one steering: "I still feel like I'm in charge of this. I've got the reins." She has also enjoyed demanding clients because they take her into new industries and cultures, including Southeast Asian cultures over the last couple of years.
Don't Wait to Feel Confident
Asked what she would tell someone who is where she was a year earlier, Cheryle says to "flip it". She used to think she would write a book when she felt more confident, or grow her practice once she lost the fear of success. Instead she followed the advice to unpack and mine her expertise, write about what she does and be generous with clients. The mindset, she says, came afterwards.
She uses a marathon to describe it. The first kilometres feel fine, and around the 30-kilometre mark you feel spent. If you keep going and reach the finish, you realise what you've done. You have to be willing to "get mucky with it" and stay in the trenches until you get there.
Her goal for the practice is total clarity: about her expertise, what she does and the programs she offers. She admires thought leaders who are clear about who they are and what they offer, and who aren't distracted by noise. For Cheryle, that clarity is real leadership in a field.
About Cheryle Walker
Cheryle specialises in live online delivery, from webinars and workshops to remote team leadership. She started her practice nearly ten years before this 2021 conversation, after a career at National Australia Bank. She is the author of Leverage LIVE Online (2021). LinkedIn is her preferred place to connect.
Frequently Asked Questions
How can a consultant stop being an order taker?
Cheryle says it started with putting her expertise on paper, first in a white paper and then in a book. That led her to think in clusters and programs. She now aims to be clear about what she offers and what it costs, and to act as an advisor and not only an order taker.
Should a consultant wait to feel confident before writing a white paper or book?
In her experience, no. Cheryle used to think she had to wait until she felt confident enough to write a book, and says that moment would never have come. She started writing instead and found the confidence followed.
How does Cheryle respond when a prospect says she is too expensive?
She says she no longer feels she has to drop her rate. She may suggest starting with her book and a one-day course, or refer routine work to a producer in her network at a different day rate.
How did Cheryle start delegating in her practice?
She started by employing her husband. She says it showed her which work she can hand over, and that documenting her methods and creating templates makes it easier for others to take on tasks.
How does Cheryle plan around slow periods such as December and January?
She says she now feels there won't be a slump, because she plans how she shows up in the market. When we spoke, she was switching off over December and January for the first time in ten years of running her practice, and planned to use part of that time to look at the year ahead.
What fears did Cheryle face while growing her practice?
She names rollercoaster revenue, a fear of success tied to doubts about her worth, concern that so many people were suddenly becoming experts in live online, and worry about sustaining a larger practice. She says writing the white paper and book reduced her fear of success and her worry about newcomers.
Conclusion
Cheryle's story is as much about a change in how she runs her practice as it is about growth. She stopped letting every request set her offer and put her depth of experience on paper. As a result, she says, she has more confidence in her pricing, a clearer view of her programs and more control over how big her practice gets. Her advice is simple: don't wait to feel confident, and do the work that builds it.
Work With Jane Anderson
If Cheryle's story sounds familiar, you can take the next step with Women With Influence, my program and community for female consultants and advisors who sell B2B services. You can also see where your practice could grow with the free assessments in the Growth Toolkit, or book a time with me to talk it through.
Key Takeaways from Today’s Episode:
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In this segment, Jane Anderson introduces her podcast, the Jane Anderson Brand New Show, aimed at experts seeking to enhance their impact, influence, and income in their businesses and careers. She emphasizes the importance of personal connections in business, stating that people buy from and work with those they know, like, and trust. Jane then invites Cheryl to discuss her practice, its context, clientele, and its evolution since its inception.
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Cheryl describes her specialized practice focusing on live online sessions, including webinars, workshops, and remote team leadership training, emphasizing their transformative potential despite the absence of face-to-face interaction. She recounts her transition from a corporate role at National Australia Bank to founding her practice, driven by a vision of democratizing learning experiences within geographically dispersed organizations. Cheryl details her consulting work pre-COVID, assisting large corporations across various sectors in structuring and implementing effective online learning programs. Despite initial skepticism, Cheryl champions the efficacy of live online sessions, challenging the prevailing deficit mindset. She reflects on the surge in demand for her services during the COVID-19 pandemic, which propelled her practice to unprecedented growth. Cheryl discusses her shift towards strategic positioning and value-based pricing, culminating in the publication of a white paper and a book to solidify her expertise and offerings.
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The conversation shifts to the challenges of transitioning from a passive "order-taking" approach to proactive business development. Jane and Cheryl discuss the complacency that can arise from a steady stream of clients and the necessity of strategic initiatives such as writing a book and creating white papers to drive growth. They highlight the importance of transitioning to a community-driven approach and maintaining discipline in client outreach and engagement.
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Jane suggests newsletters as the next step in Cheryl's business development strategy, emphasizing the importance of fostering community engagement and discipline. Cheryl acknowledges the value of this approach, recognizing the need for structured communication and relationship building, especially during slower business periods.
Cheryl reflects on the challenges of sporadic client acquisition and the need for structured business development efforts. She discusses the evolution of her practice towards deliberate positioning and value-based pricing, resulting in increased confidence in her offerings. Cheryl also highlights the importance of building a network of collaborators to handle varying levels of work complexity and client affordability.
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The conversation delves into the significance of understanding one's value and crafting compelling value propositions. Jane and Cheryl emphasize the importance of confidently pricing services based on their inherent value and assisting clients in finding suitable alternatives if affordability becomes an issue.
Cheryl discusses her approach to addressing affordability concerns by offering scalable entry points such as books and introductory courses. She highlights the misconception surrounding the depth of expertise required for effective live online sessions and the need for education to dispel such notions. Cheryl emphasizes the potential for gradual client immersion to showcase the value of her services and the field as a whole.
Cheryl discusses the importance of understanding participant behavior in online sessions and the impact of effective communication and cultural norms within organizations on session engagement. She highlights the need for strategic planning to ensure participants are fully engaged and comfortable during sessions, citing examples where thoughtful planning led to positive participant experiences.
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Cheryl reflects on her motivations for accelerating business growth, citing concerns about revenue fluctuation and a fear of success rooted in self-doubt. She describes her journey towards confidence through the process of unpacking her expertise and experiences, culminating in the publication of her book. Cheryl discusses her shift from a reactive approach to business development to a proactive, strategic mindset, driven by a desire for stability and clarity in her practice. She also addresses fears of increased competition in her field and the realization of her unique expertise and depth of experience.
Jane highlights the key shifts observed in Cheryl's journey, including increased confidence, significant revenue growth, and enhanced clarity surrounding her value proposition and business direction. Cheryl acknowledges these shifts and emphasizes the importance of transitioning from order taking to a more consultative, advisory role, guided by strategic planning and market intelligence.
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Cheryl discusses her transition towards a more advisory role, focusing on educating clients about effective strategies rather than simply fulfilling orders. She emphasizes the importance of guiding clients towards optimal outcomes based on her expertise and experience, even if it means steering them away from their initial requests. Cheryl also highlights the significance of client education in dispelling misconceptions about the complexity and value of her services.
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Cheryl shares her apprehensions about business growth, particularly fears of sustaining a larger practice and competition from emerging experts in her field. She discusses her decision to employ her husband and the subsequent realization of her ability to delegate tasks and create operational efficiencies. Cheryl acknowledges the importance of trusting herself and her capacity to manage growth sustainably.
Jane commends Cheryl's journey towards building a sustainable practice and trusting others to support her vision. Cheryl reflects on the importance of documenting processes and empowering team members to take ownership of their roles within the practice. She acknowledges the value of collaborative efforts in achieving long-term sustainability and scalability.
Cheryl discusses her goal of creating a scalable yet manageable practice, emphasizing the importance of maintaining her creative autonomy while delegating tasks to support growth. She acknowledges the challenges of balancing operational scale with personal fulfillment and creative expression.
Cheryl reflects on lessons learned from her family's entrepreneurial ventures, recognizing the importance of forward planning and avoiding overwhelm in business operations. She emphasizes the need to strike a balance between scaling the practice and preserving personal well-being and creative fulfillment, aiming for sustainable growth and long-term success.
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Cheryl emphasizes the autonomy and financial control she experiences in her own practice, contrasting it with her previous experiences in corporate settings. She expresses satisfaction in being able to drive her own income and make decisions about her professional trajectory without the constraints of corporate structures. Cheryl highlights the sense of ownership and empowerment she feels in managing her practice's finances and planning for her future retirement.
Cheryl reflects on her experiences negotiating salaries in corporate environments where she often had to advocate for the value of her roles. In contrast, she appreciates the autonomy of setting prices in her own practice, without the need for approval from higher-ups. Cheryl acknowledges the challenges and rewards of both corporate and entrepreneurial environments, expressing a preference for the latter due to the greater sense of control and agency it provides.
Jane and Cheryl discuss the strategic decision-making process in Cheryl's practice, highlighting the ability to determine when to increase or decrease revenue and manage workload accordingly. Cheryl emphasizes the freedom to make choices aligned with her personal and professional goals, contrasting it with the rigidity often encountered in corporate settings.
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Cheryl reflects on the sense of ownership and accountability she experiences as an entrepreneur, even when faced with demanding clients or projects. She contrasts this with the feeling of being at the mercy of corporate demands, emphasizing the empowerment and agency she derives from running her own practice.
Jane and Cheryl celebrate Cheryl's achievements, including her recent acquisition of her dream car and beach house, attributing them to her hard work and dedication to her practice. Cheryl reflects on the gratification of realizing her goals through persistent effort and acknowledges the unexpected rewards that accompany entrepreneurial success. She expresses gratitude for the autonomy and flexibility her practice affords her, enabling her to enjoy both professional and personal accomplishments.
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Jane seeks Cheryl's advice for aspiring entrepreneurs who may be hesitant to take the leap into entrepreneurship. Cheryl encourages individuals to embrace action over waiting for confidence, emphasizing the importance of engaging in activities that foster confidence and competence. She shares her personal experience of diving into challenges head-on and discovering her capabilities through perseverance and determination.
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Cheryl discusses her aspirations for her practice, emphasizing the importance of achieving total clarity about her expertise, offerings, and value proposition. She admires thought leaders who demonstrate clear direction and purpose in their fields and seeks to emulate their effectiveness in guiding clients and making strategic decisions. Jane expresses gratitude for Cheryl's contributions to her book and invites listeners to connect with Cheryl through her website and LinkedIn profile.
With this, the conversation between Cheryl and Jane concludes, encapsulating Cheryl's journey of growth, empowerment, and fulfillment in her entrepreneurial endeavors.
Full Show Transcript:
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Hi there, my name is Jane Anderson and this is the Jane Anderson Brand New Show. It's the podcast for experts who want to have greater impact, influence and income for their businesses and careers. As experts, we know that people buy from people and work with people who they know, who they like and who they trust.
So I'm so glad you're here because it's that time again now to really amplify how you show up in the world.
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Cheryl, so can you tell us a bit about your practice, like the context of it and the type of clients you run? How did you start?
And how did you start and where is it now in terms of who you're working with?
[Speaker 1] (1:05 - 6:55)
OK, so it's turned out quite a deep niche practice in live online, so anything from webinars to workshops to remote team leadership and people being able to connect and be effective live online and to the point of being transformational, even if they never meet each other face to face or have very little opportunity. So I started the practice nearly 10 years ago. I came out of National Australia Bank, a big corporate, having set up all of the digital learning strategy and digital learning channels for them there.
And that was a nine year kind of career journey through National Australia Bank where I saw the opportunity for particularly a large organisation like that, who's geographically distributed, large employee base to be able to equalise the learning experience for employees. So whether you're in Olympic Dam or Cloncurry or Far Western Queensland or whether you're in Sydney, you get the same opportunity to connect, to network, to learn and to rub shoulders with people in the organisation. And so this particular medium, Live Online, does that very effectively.
Now, that was a good while ago. So that's 18 years I've been practising this kind of thing. So the last two years has been absolutely massive because of COVID.
So prior to that in my practice, the seven years leading up to COVID, I would work with large corporates, mainly banking, retail, insurance, manufacturing, and I would help them structure their learning programs or even run large events for them where they wanted to use webinar type technology. And so I'd help them with strategy, choosing technologies and figuring out how to make it work and how to bring people's mindset and behaviours to the webcam square without them shutting it all down. And, you know, people going, I hate this and we don't want to do this and this won't work and my bandwidth's no good and, you know, trying to help across all of that.
So from a strategic point of view, a mindset point of view, helping organisations and then a practical point of view, designing what are the materials and collateral you need to be effective in this environment and what's the way that you prepare yourself, your persona, how do you bring your best self, your authentic self to the webcam square and not be shut down like that. So it's almost like a stagecraft in some regard. Been doing a lot of that, but also had to convince a lot of clients that this could be as good as if we were face to face.
And so that was my big mantra or mission. This is as good as being face to face and we need to take that mindset and I can guide you and help you and hold your hand to make it as good rather than thinking, oh, we've got reduced budget or we can't get people together. And so, you know, everybody does the deficit mindset when they approach this kind of thing.
So particularly with large scale learning programmes prior to COVID, I had to sell the concept that this could be really successful and really good as opposed to static e-learning. Now, static e-learning is, you know, screen based read or interact with things, but it's not live and it's not collaborative and together. So I did a lot of work in that.
And then all of a sudden, pandemic comes along and people are ringing me up saying, well, now this is all we've got and we know that you've been banging on about this for a long time. You've helped a lot of organisations, you know, these are organisations that I had helped and others that I hadn't, but they'd heard of me or found me on LinkedIn were all of a sudden going, well, you know, we don't know where to go. We don't know where to start.
We're feeling awkward and clunky and we've got to deliver something in three weeks time. And all of a sudden, you know, we're not allowed to travel and there's people stuck in places. And and so, yeah, my practice actually went boom, even though I was doing quite well, doing quite well before that.
But all of a sudden, instead of me reaching out and trying to find clients, they were piling into me, which is quite a challenge in itself, that kind of rapid practice growth. But a really good ride. So I've had two years of helping a lot of different clients, getting an even broader range of experience than I had previously.
But one of the things I've really learned is is up until probably this year, 2021, I was driven by the market, what people were asking me for, which is a good thing, because when I first started out, I didn't kind of know where the value was. And so you kind of put things out there and put proposals in and you get feedback and then you get people who come to you with a real specific need and they believe in you and believe you can do it. But the pivotal thing in 2021 and particularly since working with you, Jane, has been positioning myself where I want to be with the work that I do and understanding my own value and expertise.
And so starting with a white paper and then, you know, writing a book has helped me mine the depth of the experience and expertise that I have. You know, I kind of carry it all around in my head and I hop from client to client to client. And this year, putting it on paper and working with it in terms of models, constructing models, unpacking it, repacking it, storytelling, framing it, metaphors, all of that work that went into white paper first and then book has really helped me mine the depths of what I've done and understand different perspectives of value on that, whether it be client perspective, my perspective, end user perspective, which is often not compliant, all of that. So that's been amazingly helpful to then go forward and shape my practice to, you know, to where I want it to be, to thinking about clusters and what I do rather than purely being, you know, pick up the phone and people say, yes, hello, can you help us with this?
And I go, yes, I can help you with that.
[Speaker 2] (6:56 - 8:21)
Right. So the shift from because I mean, you had great relationships, you'd built up a lot of great clients because you've done some great work. And we always say delivery is selling.
Like if you do a great job, we'll often result in selling something else. But it can lull you into a bit of a safe space where you feel safe, where you go, oh, good, because that's kind of the ultimate right is to be able to say, I want to get to a point where I don't have to do any business development and everybody comes to me. And so if you've had what we would call order taking, where people are just coming to you and you just go, yeah, right, another program, you know, the impact of that is you go, oh, great, I've got 100 percent close rate.
And, you know, it gives you sort of those reassurances that you think you're kind of going, you know, OK, but the challenge becomes in in the growth, like you go, OK, well, now I can't get the day right to shift or I can't. And I and so how do I do that? Because I know I've got I know I can grow here, but how do I do that?
And so those collateral, like particularly the book and the white paper now are those two key pieces now that you've been able to use. And now that next step really is that newsletter, I guess, isn't it?
[Speaker 1] (8:22 - 9:12)
Yeah, I mean, when you drive that, you're really now getting community, absolutely bringing discipline into how I develop my business as opposed to just responding to the market. And it's interesting to say that that order taking is comfortable. I never felt safe or comfortable because I always felt at the mercy of is the phone going to ring at the end of this project?
You know, I'm booked up to whatever. OK, what else is coming in and what will I do if if the phone doesn't ring, particularly over this time of year, December, January phone never rings. Yeah, I kind of got it.
I feel like it's crank starting an engine again in February, March, trying to where's that first client for the year who's ready to go versus who else is still going on such and such is still on holidays. We can't make decisions right now because we haven't got our budget confirmed and all that kind of stuff. So I was always trying to crank start the practice again at the start of a new year.
[Speaker 2] (9:12 - 9:12)
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (9:12 - 11:59)
And doing that without intelligence, I was kind of just, you know, kind of ringing people while you're going, you know, rather than rather than having a book, a program, a model, you know, something that has solidity and that I've been delivering and doing, having stories to tell, had none of that prepared. And like you say, I had no discipline around newsletters and contacts, so they would just get a call from me out of the blue because I'm hungry for work going, well, what are you doing? You know, how are you going to, you know?
And so, yeah, that still working on getting that cadence happening. But I really understand now the value of that discipline, even when you're busy and got lots of client work. So I guess that as well as, like I say, being deliberate about my practice and not just responding to every request and trying to put a price on it, but actually saying here are the programs and here's what I do and here's how much it costs and being on the front foot in terms of what I do and what I offer.
And that's where I am heading now. So in the last two years, yes, I've been able to increase day rate and not feel like I was fishing to say, oh, will I take that? I felt confident that if you say no to that, that's OK, because I know that that day rate is solid and that other people get plenty of value from that.
So not only day rate, but also understanding the value that I build into programs and how that supports price. And so, yes, I have had some people say no in the last two years because I'm too expensive. And normally I would, you know, prior to this understanding of my practice, I would have freaked out about that and plummeted the rate, you know, please, please, you know, we'll do it at this rate and whatever.
Now, I don't feel like I need to do that. I think that's OK. You're obviously not ready for this level of of expertise that I've got or or, you know, maybe not ready now or maybe not quite suited to the kind of work I do.
And there's someone else. And that's the other thing that I've developed as well is a network of people who have come to this area of practice live online who, I guess, I hesitate to say admire what I do, but, you know, we've got to look at our own expertise, I guess, and are happy to do the work that is more perhaps routine sort of work that I can give them that if I'm too busy or doing higher level programs or work or higher cost work, I've got other people then who I can recommend and say I've got a producer for you who has a day rate of this and can do that. Yeah.
So that's been a fresh development as well, kind of lifting up that level and having others who who will do a different level of work.
[Speaker 2] (11:59 - 12:29)
And I can refer to that really knowing your value and being able to create a great value proposition, knowing and being confident that you do bring great value and there's no need to drop your price because you and then if they so if the issue is not value, if the issue is affordability, then you can help them find someone else and you're quite comfortable and and OK with that. Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (12:29 - 14:12)
Yeah. Or even just starting with, you know, sometimes I say to people, well, you know, if they come completely blind and don't realise what I do and how I charge and then I give them a quote, no, I didn't expect anything like that. I say we can start with a book, you know, by the book, it's $30, buy the book and start there and see how you go.
Then you might come along to a one day course or something with me. And you might work up and work into it that way. And I guess there's two things about that.
It addresses that affordability, but it might also give them a window, pardon me, into the depth of this field. So that's the other reason I think why price becomes a barrier. People don't realise the depth of expertise in live online.
I think it's just, you know, buy a webcam, switch it on, you get Zoom, that's that's a cheap subscription and then away we go, which will work for some people, but you can actually do a whole lot better than that if you put a whole lot more design thought and effort into it and also do a whole lot more strategic thinking around who your participants are, why they've been invited, what they are expecting and how they will behave.
You know, the classic one that gives me insight into that is when people say I can't get anybody to switch webcams on and then I rummage around and dig into how did you communicate this event? What were they expecting? What's the general culture in your organisation around use of webcams on or off or whatever?
And also then do these people know each other? Have they met before? And so you rummage around in all of that.
And there's so many opportunities there to start at the beginning again. And you'll have people with webcams on smiling and going, wow, this is a great experience. And yes, you know, I'm happy to bring my whole self and my cat and dog in the background as well.
I love that.
[Speaker 2] (14:13 - 15:00)
Cheryl, when you were so when you first started and started to implement some of this methodology, which is around being able to get good collateral, you know, we talk about lead gen, we talk about all those things that are part of sort of that expert to influencer process we talk about. What was happening for you in terms of, say, around some of the problems or challenges or even fears that you were having that sort of triggered you kind of going, was it that you'd sort of hummed along and you wanted or you wanted like the worry of that order taking, you wanted more certainty and predictability in your practice? Or what were some of the things that were happening for you that made you decide you wanted to put the accelerator on and grow a bit?
[Speaker 1] (15:01 - 18:51)
Yes, several things. Rollercoaster revenue, one of them. So times are good when somebody recognises what they want from you and they pop you on a big project and where we go and then, you know, you hit the slump again.
And I had no foundation of knowing what to do when I hit the slump again, whereas now I feel like there won't be a slump because I'm planning for, you know, for how I'm out there in the market. So that was one of them. A fear of success because of that fear of what is my expertise?
Am I good enough? When I wrote the book particularly and unpacked that and that started with the white paper, when you work with unpacking your own brain of expertise and your own experience, it provides an enormous confidence level foundation of, you know, I have done this and I've done that too and I achieved that and that client saw that value and achieved that as a result of what I did to, you know, and that so that has kind of taken away the fear of success for me. I feared success because I thought I wasn't worthy of it. If I did really well for a client and they elevated or spoke about my work, I think, oh, my God, you know, now there's this burden on me.
What is it? So my initial word in coming to the practice was depth. I needed to mine the depth of what I'd done and and focus on that and put that out there.
I'm trying to think there's one other thing you said that made me think of another fear. So I guess it was just from from not steering the ship of my practice to now really steering it. It's also that I think I spoke about it a moment ago as well, that that idea that everything would fall apart or in December, January and having to restart and recrank.
This is the first time in the whole time I've run my practice, 10 years that I've actually said I'm switching off over December, January, one, have a big rest because I've had a massive two years and in that two years I've worked a lot of weekends and that but it's been an exhilarating ride and great work. And secondly, so I feel confident I can switch off for part of this time, but also then to focus back inwards on the practice again. I need that time to go back to, OK, what's my fresh start for, you know, what's 2022 looking like?
What are the clusters? What are the programs? What will go out there?
Oh, the other thing. That's right. That was the other thing.
The other fear I had, particularly the beginning of 2020, was I've been doing this for at that stage 17 years, 16 years I've been doing this and got deep expertise in. But all of a sudden people are emerging everywhere, becoming experts in live online because, you know, they needed to. And so you get in terms of perhaps I don't know if you call it colleagues or competition, whatever you like, however you like to view that, you get a lot of other people forwarding themselves out there going, I can, you know, help you run remote teams.
I can run webinars for you. I can do this and all of that. And I think and I felt fear about that.
I thought all of a sudden everybody can do catching up. Yeah. Catching up or just they can do everything that I can do.
And it wasn't until I did the white paper and read the book that I wrote the book that I realized, no, actually, it's taken me a long time to develop this expertise. And I've got a lot of depth, a lot of stories, a lot of experiences that not to talk others down, but I realized that was a selling point. I haven't come lightly to this field.
I haven't just hung up the shingle and gone. I can run a webinar for you. I've had I've experienced all sorts of clients in all sorts of industries with all sorts of challenges and help them across those and help them learn from that.
So that gave me another step up in confidence and reduced that fear of, oh, everybody can do what I can do now. I'm just not vanilla, you know.
[Speaker 2] (18:52 - 19:20)
So the things the shifts I'm hearing for you, Cheryl, like you just said, one is confidence. The other one is you've had revenue growth, like, you know, so you don't have to go into the amount if you don't want to. But, you know, as a percentage, do you think you've kind of on track to the 50 percent growth or, you know, would you have?
Yeah, probably more like 60 percent growth, 60 percent growth.
[Speaker 1] (19:21 - 19:27)
Yeah. Revenue. And I think more potential beyond that once I really get clear on clusters and programs.
[Speaker 2] (19:27 - 19:28)
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (19:28 - 19:29)
Yeah.
[Speaker 2] (19:30 - 19:41)
Great. So and I'm hearing that clarity, the shifts for you have been confidence, revenue growth, clarity around your value. Clarity, definitely.
[Speaker 1] (19:41 - 20:33)
Yeah. And hearing the practice rather than just hearing, like you say, order taking or responsive to the market. I still want to be responsive to market, but now in an intelligent way, as in forecasting and seeing what the market might need and having a program or a book or a white paper ready to to help hook that in, rather than just thinking, well, whatever they want, they get.
Yeah. And you lose your sense of identity then. And also clients don't always know what they want, which is fair enough.
You know, if they haven't had the experience and things, they don't know what to order or ask for. So they might ask for something that may not be as effective for them as something else or another angle on it. So it's being able to be more of a consultant than just saying, yes, if you want that built and done that way, I'll do it that way for you.
[Speaker 2] (20:34 - 20:58)
Yes. Yeah. The more advisory and the expertise to say, well, actually, I can do it that way.
But, you know, I think you're hiring me for my expertise. And, you know, I wouldn't advise going that way. My advice would be if you want this particular outcome and feeling comfortable in that conviction, you know, to be able to say, well, no, that's not going to work.
[Speaker 1] (20:59 - 20:59)
Right.
[Speaker 2] (20:59 - 21:19)
OK, yes, please. I'll take the order and, you know, I'll just cope with that. A couple of other key things that have happened, if I think about for you, have been your hobbies.
Come on. Yeah. You now have you're now working together, which is lovely.
[Speaker 1] (21:20 - 22:31)
So that was another fear, fear of growth. Oh, I don't know. Like I've employed people.
Don't get me wrong. I had a team of ten at National Australia Bank, eleven at one time. I'm not fearful of employing people.
I'm fearful of employing people in my own practice because I think, can I sustain that? And I've always said when I said I'm not building an empire here. And so this was my my fear coming out of fear of growth, fear of growing a practice that was bigger than just me and my eight hours a day kind of thing.
But and so I've had an easy start in employing my husband because, you know, he's right here on the spot and he's watched me build my practice and knows what I do. And and it's been really helpful. But that's opened a whole window to, yes, I can delineate between the work that I need to do and the work that I can delegate or have others help with support.
And, yeah, massive learning for me to do that. I've always been a bit of a solopreneur with the emphasis on the solo, not in not in corporate, not because, you know, in corporate I was a leader and that was my role to lead people. But I guess it's a different mindset I've taken with my own practice and I've limited myself by that, but not anymore.
[Speaker 2] (22:32 - 22:49)
Yeah, right. So just even your own trusting, there's a bit of trusting yourself, isn't there, that, yeah, I've got this, I can sustain that position, you know, if we're going to be OK. That takes a lot of courage and a lot of guts to do that.
[Speaker 1] (22:49 - 22:49)
Yeah.
[Speaker 2] (22:50 - 22:52)
You know, that's a real sign of the work you've done.
[Speaker 1] (22:52 - 23:35)
Once you've got that, that courage is then thinking it through. All right. How do I set it up easy for someone else to do?
Because, you know, too long I've carried everything around in my head and I know how to do things that haven't documented or put things down. And don't get me wrong, I've still got work to do in that space of documenting. But all of a sudden I've got this window into, yes, if I just create this template and do this thing and have this set up well, then somebody else can come in and scoop it up and go, I know what you need.
And it's just another one of those you want me to do to support you in that. And that's why I think you've been an amazing role model. You're streets ahead of me on that.
But but I can see now the value of having others support the practice.
[Speaker 2] (23:35 - 23:35)
Yes.
[Speaker 1] (23:36 - 23:55)
And also then I've got an insight, a little bit of insight, still learning into what's required to have that go smoothly and to have them feel like they're owning a part of the work and that they're truly contributing rather than just trying to run around going, what does she want me to do now? How does she want me to do that? I'm not sure what she said.
Oh, yeah.
[Speaker 2] (23:55 - 24:47)
Yes. Yeah. Because like you said, you're not trying to build an empire.
You're trying to build a sustainable practice that you can do because this is your life's work and you want to do it for as long as you like. You can do this till you're 90 or you can hang up the webcam at any point that you like. But for a lot of us, you know, this is your passion and this is what this is.
Your most your creative, most fully expressed self. And so, you know, there's a you're not trying to build this empire and create. You're trying to create scale, but scale that's manageable.
Yeah. That others can support you, like you said. But you can still try and play in your genius as much as possible.
But you're making others jobs easy enough to be able to get those things out of your head and into some sort of systems and processes that I can that I can use.
[Speaker 1] (24:48 - 26:50)
Yeah. I've got two sets of parents who have both run their own small businesses for many, many years. So I think that gives me my entrepreneurial juice.
But I've seen also in both cases the business overwhelm them. And so I guess that was one of my fears. And so what you're saying to me there that I that I'm really hooking into is that idea that that I'm running the practice.
It won't overwhelm me. I'm forward planning. I know the size that it needs to be.
I've got a sufficient support and help. And yeah, and I'm not looking to, as I said, grow an empire that then becomes a burden to me. I want this still to be a work of love, working with the clients I love on the things I want to do and still come back to steering that ship on steering this thing.
And I'll do it for as long as. Well, there's two reasons, I guess, I'm in business. One is I like I like the creativity, the flexibility the ability to be in charge and go where I want to do.
You know, I'm my own boss. I'm not stuck in a corporate job where, you know, they restructure and I then get stuck in something else. There's nothing stuck about about my practice and the way I do things.
So that's one part of it. And the other part is I can drive my own income. I can amp it up and work really hard and scoop in the revenue.
And then at other times, I can year over the year, I can go, well, there's enough in the bank account now. I'll sit easy for a bit and I'll have, you know, zero or low revenue months. And that's OK.
I'm not going to panic about that. So it's kind of that financial planning bit. And certainly when I look towards when I want to retire, I feel completely in charge of that in my own practice.
Not only in terms of the workload that I can scale back when I want to, but I'm in charge of I do really feel in charge of the revenue that I'm earning. And I know how much I need to earn over the next few years to go. Well, you know, that's enough for me.
And I've got my, you know, car and house and, you know, what I need sort of thing.
[Speaker 2] (26:51 - 27:07)
Yeah, I love that. Just really, you know, we think about why did we most of us go into consulting? Was that sense of autonomy and freedom and the ability to make our own choices to be able to do what we want to do?
So I love that.
[Speaker 1] (27:07 - 28:31)
And that if I share a bit more about money, I used to be in a position in corporate where I would because I was always leading creative or innovative initiatives. I was always creating my own next role. I was never kind of climbing a ladder that was a career pathway.
I was always, you know, like in the digital learning space and digital learning strategy and then head of digital learning. I created those roles because we needed them, because I developed the the work enough that it needed. And, you know, I developed roles in my team.
So I always felt like I was arguing for my next salary or negotiating because there was no role there. I had to define the role. And then I had to argue for how much I believe that role was worth and what level it was in company, because like I say, I was always creating roles and teams and things in the work that I did.
Whereas in my own practice, I don't have to do that. Now, you know, like I'm in charge of pricing. I don't need to speak to someone up in the executive and go, I believe my role is worth this amount of money and whatever.
I love that. I enjoy that part of it as well. Yes.
Don't get me wrong. I love my time in corporate. You get an enormous amount of experience in corporate.
Meet a lot of people, get a lot of good challenges, get a lot of juice from that. But yeah, once I stepped into my own practice, I really enjoy that. Yeah, I can I can dial up the revenue and dial it down as I like.
Much easier than I can argue for a pay rise. Yeah.
[Speaker 2] (28:32 - 29:04)
Yeah. And, you know, the ramifications of any of those decisions, like, you know, OK, I'm going to increase the revenue. Right.
That means I've got to make sure I'm looking after myself, make sure I get to get in and, you know, I've got a lot to deliver. I've got to make sure I've got the right support, you know, that you can and, you know, you can ease the accelerator off. You know, you can choose when you ease that off as opposed to corporate demands determining when you will do those things.
[Speaker 1] (29:04 - 30:06)
And even if even if you find yourself, I find myself sometimes not in a position of choice, like I've landed a big contract with a tight deadline and I need to go hard to deliver that. I still feel like I'm in charge. I still feel like I'm working for the boss.
I am. Yes. Even if I land a very demanding client, I've had a few, but I actually then feel like I enjoy demanding clients because this is taking me into new challenges, maybe a new industry or a new bunch of people in it.
You know, I've worked in Southeast Asian cultures in the last couple of years, and that's fascinating and challenging. And so not all easy, sometimes hard. But but yeah, the distinction I'm making is when you're working hard for a boss or a big corporate, you don't always see you don't always feel like you're in charge when it's your own practice and you've got a very difficult client or a hard project.
I still feel like I'm in charge of this. I've got the reins. I'm not, you know, I'm not a victim to this yet.
[Speaker 2] (30:07 - 30:27)
Yeah. And, you know, even just other things that you've been able to do, if I think about it, like you've been even just things like being able to you bought your dream car recently, which is so cool. How did that feel like now being at that stage in your practice?
It was amazing that it's such a cool feeling.
[Speaker 1] (30:28 - 31:28)
Every time I drive it, I think I own this thing. I never thought I would own it. And when you say my dream car, I kind of I guess I didn't dream about it.
I am a bit of a fan of cars and I've had a few different cars of my time, but I never kind of popped it up there on the vision board and when I want to own one of those, I kind of worked hard in my practice to the point where I had enough money and it just made good sense from a tax perspective as well, that I can have one of those. And this dawning of, oh, my God, an amazing car to drive and then being able to have it. And still every day, I think, wow, you know, and my husband keeps reminding me, this is your hard work.
You have worked so hard that you've got yourself there. So it was almost like a it was almost like one day I woke up and looked around and realized how hard I'd worked and what I'd earned to be able to achieve that. I didn't kind of I didn't thirst for it.
Necessarily. Yeah. But yeah, once once I got that, I went, wow.
And, you know, things like our beach house and that.
[Speaker 2] (31:28 - 31:28)
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (31:29 - 31:38)
Things like that. I guess I dreamed of that more than anything. But once again, never really believed that I would have the money to to be able to do that.
And yeah.
[Speaker 2] (31:38 - 31:41)
Sometimes you even work from there. How good is it?
[Speaker 1] (31:41 - 31:41)
Yeah.
[Speaker 2] (31:43 - 32:49)
Exactly. Oh, Cheryl, you've just come so far. I'm so happy for you with what you've been able to implement this year.
I know there's been you've had a lot on your plate with particularly with COVID and the demands that you've had from your clients. And but then being able to implement some of these key things, the big one was your book, White Papers. Absolutely.
-
Just trusting your thinking and being able to get that out and know that you've got great value and you do have that transformational experience for your client. But you've done a lot of work this year. What advice would you have if someone was at that?
Imagine going back to where your practice was, you know, 12 months ago. And if someone's sitting there thinking, oh, Cheryl was that's me. Now, where she was.
What advice would you have for them if they're at that stage where they're wanting a bit more certainty in their practice? They probably got some good clients, but they feel like they could be doing better. But they're just not confident, perhaps in that their expertise and their knowledge.
And and, you know, with that next stage of growing their practice.
[Speaker 1] (32:49 - 33:51)
Yeah, I'd say I'd say flip it and do the follow the practice and do the positioning and the work and the mindset will come. I used to think to myself when I feel more confident, I will write a book or when I lose that fear of success, maybe then I'm ready to grow my practice. Whereas I just kind of dived in and followed your good advice of of unpacking and mining your expertise, you know, writing about what you do, sharing what you do, being generous with clients and do that.
And the mindset came for me. That's my advice. I think everybody might be different.
But I used to think I've got to wait until I'm on the right headspace. Right. Yeah.
Particularly the book. I would I would say I need to wait until I feel confident enough to write a book, and that would never happen. I just get in and get mucky with it.
Yeah. And it didn't take very long before all of a sudden I realized, wow, I think I can actually do this. I think I can get a little of that little steam engine.
I think I can.
[Speaker 2] (33:52 - 33:52)
I think I can.
[Speaker 1] (33:53 - 34:27)
I know I can. No, I was only going, look what I did. Oh, my God.
You know, I mean, that just that just makes you want the next challenge then because you feel like that one bit like running a marathon. You know, the first 10 K's is pretty good. 20 K's feels really good.
30, you feel like an absolute bag of shit. But I tell you what, when you get to 42, you go, man, I just did that. I just did that.
So you got to kind of get in the trenches. You got to get to the 30 K mark where you just feel absolutely spent. But you think I've got a little bit and I can keep going.
I think I can. And then, yes, I'm going to get there.
[Speaker 2] (34:28 - 34:41)
That's such great advice, Sarah. I love that. So flip it.
So, you know, rather than waiting till you feel confident. Yeah. Don't wait to feel confident.
Do the activities that that creates the confidence. It does.
[Speaker 1] (34:41 - 34:41)
Yeah.
[Speaker 2] (34:41 - 34:54)
I love that feeling. What's the dream for your practice in the future, Cheryl? So, yeah.
What's your biggest dream or your goal for you for your practice from here?
[Speaker 1] (34:54 - 35:51)
Total clarity is is my big dream. Total clarity about my expertise, what I do, the programs I offer. Yeah.
And yeah, I guess it's just a level up from where I now. I feel I have clarity now. I'd just like to go for that real, real clear.
And I see some people in your community and thought leaders and and around the place who do seem to have that total clarity. Here's who I am, what I do. And so if something over here that's sort of associated with what they do doesn't really suit them, they go, sorry, but here's what I am.
I don't get I don't get distracted. I get distracted by noise. And and I think they're very effective because of that.
I think you can be maximum effective if you are clear about here's who I am and what I do and how I can help. And and, you know, let me let me help you. Let me guide you.
That's I think that's real leadership in in your field. Yeah.
[Speaker 2] (35:51 - 36:20)
Terrific. Well, we're so happy for you, Cheryl. Thanks for being part of the book.
For those people who want to reach out or who would like to follow you, they jump on to Cheryl Walker, Walker dot com. Yeah. And you've also got your book live online, which you can download on Amazon and go to.
Yeah, it's on all the. Yeah, all from my website. You can purchase a.
Yeah. And if they want to connect with you on even LinkedIn or something like that. Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (36:20 - 36:24)
LinkedIn is my favorite. Yeah. Best place to connect.
Terrific.
[Speaker 2] (36:24 - 36:25)
All right. Thanks again, Cheryl.
[Speaker 1] (36:25 - 36:26)
Thanks.
