Episode 40- Interview with Interpersonal Safety Expert Dr. Amy Silver

25 June

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In this podcast interview, Dr. Amy and I talked about trust, building psychological safety as part of business growth within teams to attract clients, and what experts and leaders need to do to increase psychological safety for high performance.

Dr. Amy Silver is a psychologist, speaker, author and mentor on building cultures of courageous collaboration for remarkable growth. Her background includes working as a Clinical Psychologist and Academic Tutor for Oxford University (in the UK). She has spent three decades developing IP on how fear and habit restrict our growth and achievement. She now works mainly in Professional Services and Public Services, particularly with those who are embracing the move towards a more connected, agile workforce.

Key Takeaways from Today’s Episode:

Jane Anderson introduces her podcast, "The Jane Anderson Brand You Show," aimed at experts seeking to enhance their impact, influence, and income. She emphasizes the importance of personal branding and invites listeners to engage with her on social media regarding their personal branding efforts. Anderson discusses her recent work with leaders and experts, particularly focusing on her program "Win With Influence" for female experts. She also highlights the release of her new book, "Trusted, The Level Above Influence," which delves into building trust in personal and professional branding. Anderson reflects on her personal journey with trust, stemming from personal experiences, and outlines the nine key skills to building trust in leadership and branding.
Transitioning to introducing Dr. Amy Silver, Anderson describes Silver as a psychologist, speaker, author, and mentor specializing in building cultures of courageous collaboration. She discusses Silver's background in clinical psychology and academic tutoring at Oxford University, emphasizing Silver's expertise in addressing fear and habits that restrict growth and achievement. Anderson praises Silver's focus on creating psychological safety and trust in workplaces, particularly in professional and public services, to foster high performance and growth.
Silver provides insights into her practice, focusing on helping individuals and teams develop stronger relationships to enhance productivity and well-being. She describes her programs, including "courageous conversations" and "the safe space," which aim to facilitate honest and authentic communication within organizations. Silver emphasizes the importance of starting with leadership to set the tone for trust-building initiatives and explains her team-based approach to fostering psychological safety. She highlights the significance of creating small hubs of safety within teams to drive cultural change and collaboration across the organization.
Dr. Amy Silver discusses the importance of psychological safety in teams, distinguishing it from trust. She explains that psychological safety enables individuals to bring their authentic selves to the table without barriers or the need to conform to perceived expectations. Silver emphasizes the role of self-awareness in fostering psychological safety, highlighting the need for individuals to understand their triggers and behaviors in group settings. By embracing their uniqueness and flexing their styles, individuals can enhance collaboration and connection within teams, ultimately maximizing their collective potential.
Jane Anderson reflects on her initial understanding of psychological safety and its distinction from trust and rapport. She seeks clarification from Dr. Amy Silver on the differences between trust and psychological safety. Silver explains that while they share a common root in the emotion of fear, psychological safety encompasses the freedom to express oneself fully without fear of judgment or rejection. In contrast, trust involves reliance and confidence in others' actions and intentions. Silver underscores the importance of psychological safety in enabling individuals to access their full potential and collaborate authentically within teams.
Anderson explores the challenges organizations face in building psychological safety amid evolving workplace dynamics and pressures. Silver acknowledges the shift from ego-driven leadership to a focus on human skills and adaptability in modern workplaces. She emphasizes the need for individuals to embrace their authenticity and flexibility to foster trust and collaboration. Silver underscores the role of self-leadership in navigating group dynamics and creating a safe space for authentic expression and collaboration.
Anderson and Silver discuss lessons learned in personal branding and building trust. Silver reflects on her journey in establishing her brand and the importance of embracing authenticity and clarity. She shares her experience of initially marketing herself as a trainer and facilitator, trying to cater to various expectations, which led to feelings of fraudulence. However, through mentorship and self-discovery, Silver learned to stand tall in her uniqueness and authenticity, which facilitated trust and connection with others. She highlights the significance of overcoming fear and setting boundaries to build trust and credibility in personal branding and leadership roles. Anderson acknowledges Silver's journey as a case study in self-hacking for psychological safety and authenticity, underscoring the importance of embracing vulnerability and clarity in personal branding and professional growth.
Dr. Amy Silver emphasizes the importance of taking personal responsibility for building trust and psychological safety in professional relationships. She underscores the proactive role individuals play in creating trust rather than passively waiting for others to trust them. Silver highlights the need to assess whether collaboration with others aligns with one's ability to foster psychological safety and authentic connections. This proactive approach empowers individuals to establish boundaries and make informed decisions about their professional engagements, contributing to a more authentic and fulfilling professional journey.
Jane Anderson and Dr. Amy Silver discuss the challenges faced by female personal brands in overcoming fear and embracing authenticity. They explore the fear of rejection and failure that often accompanies professional endeavors and the tendency to overthink interactions. Silver shares insights into the importance of embracing one's authenticity and intention over perfection in building trust and connections. She reflects on her own journey of self-discovery and the realization that authenticity breeds trust and credibility in personal branding and professional relationships. Anderson acknowledges the significance of intentionality and clarity in communication, highlighting the value of setting boundaries and owning one's unique style and personality.
Dr. Amy Silver discusses the intersection of her acting background with her professional expertise in building trust and psychological safety. She reflects on initially keeping her acting experience private out of fear of not being taken seriously in corporate settings. However, Silver recognizes the value of her acting training in understanding the dynamics of high-performing teams and effective communication. She emphasizes the parallels between acting techniques, such as building relationships and fostering playfulness, and the principles of trust and collaboration in professional contexts. Anderson highlights the unique perspective Silver brings to her work, leveraging her acting experience to enhance her personal brand and provide distinctive value to clients. They discuss the power of authenticity and diversity in personal branding, emphasizing the importance of embracing one's unique traits and experiences to stand out in the market.
Silver shares her commitment to promoting diversity and cognitive diversity in professional settings as a key component of building psychological safety. She discusses her advocacy for embracing all forms of diversity, including gender and cognitive diversity, to foster innovation and collaboration. Silver illustrates the importance of authenticity by sharing her personal preference for wearing odd socks as a symbol of embracing uniqueness. She acknowledges the value of incorporating diverse perspectives into social media planning and branding efforts, highlighting the power of authenticity in connecting with audiences and promoting inclusivity. Anderson commends Silver's commitment to authenticity and diversity, recognizing the transformative impact it has on personal branding and professional engagement.
Dr. Amy Silver reflects on the journey of embracing her authenticity and self-confidence, acknowledging the importance of standing firm in her identity despite societal pressures to conform. She shares personal anecdotes, such as her preference for wearing odd socks, as symbols of her commitment to being unapologetically herself. Silver emphasizes the significance of surrounding oneself with like-minded individuals who support and inspire personal growth, highlighting the role of community in fostering resilience and self-assurance. She encourages individuals to embrace their unique traits and experiences, recognizing that authenticity is a powerful asset in personal branding and professional success. Silver underscores the value of curiosity and experimentation in navigating the complexities of personal and professional identity, emphasizing the joy of self-discovery and growth in the process.
Jane Anderson expresses gratitude for Dr. Amy Silver's insights and unique perspective on personal branding and psychological safety. She acknowledges the vulnerability required to delve into personal experiences and challenges, highlighting the transformative power of authenticity in professional engagement. Anderson reflects on the significance of overcoming self-doubt and embracing growth in building a resilient personal brand. She commends Silver for her generosity in sharing her knowledge and experiences, recognizing the value of authenticity in inspiring others to pursue their professional aspirations. Anderson expresses anticipation for future collaborations and encourages listeners to connect with Silver for speaking engagements, book releases, and professional development opportunities.
Dr. Amy Silver provides her contact information for those interested in engaging her services, directing listeners to her website and social media handles. Jane Anderson expresses gratitude for Silver's participation in the discussion and reiterates her appreciation for the valuable insights shared. She looks forward to future interactions and encourages listeners to reach out to Silver for further engagement opportunities. The conversation concludes with mutual appreciation and anticipation for future collaborations.

Full Show Transcript:

[Speaker 1] (0:09 - 12:25)
Hi there, my name is Jane Anderson and this is the Jane Anderson Brand You Show. It's the podcast for experts who want to have greater impact, influence and income for their businesses and careers. As experts, we know that people buy from people and work with people who they know, who they like and who they trust.

So I'm so glad you're here because it's that time again now to really amplify how you show up in the world. Hi there and welcome to the Jane Anderson Brand You Show. I am beyond excited that you are here and welcome to another episode of the show.

So how have you been? If you're following me on social media, if you follow me on Instagram or you're on Facebook even or LinkedIn, I'd love for you to reach out and tell me what are you up to at the moment? What are you doing to build your personal brand?

What's working? What's not working? You know, all this personal branding stuff really evolves and changes very quickly.

And sometimes it works online. You know, it's more face to face type stuff. And I've been out working with within organisations and helping leaders to be able to build their brands over the last few weeks.

And at the end of this week, I'm about to go into working with some of the clients I work with in a program called Win With Influence, which is a group of female experts in their field that I work with in helping them to be able to build their personal brand. And they're all just such amazing women. You know, they're just so committed and passionate about what they do, committed to helping their clients become the best that they can be.

You know, they're writing blogs, they're writing books, they're building databases and, you know, really starting to build their tribes around their message and who they serve. So it's exciting to see them come to life. And one of the things that we launched recently, I think I mentioned on one of the other podcasts, but has been this book this quarter, which is my new book, Trusted, which you can find on the website.

So it's called Trusted, The Level Above Influence. And it's not a massive read. You know, it's about this thick.

And if you're listening, so on the podcast, I don't know, it's probably about a centimetre and a half thick, I suppose. But I talk about all things that build trust, because trust has really changed and evolved over time. And the reason why, but some of the foundations and basics stay the same.

And, you know, what really got me obsessed about trust years ago was going through a divorce and separation after my ex-husband had an affair and I was trying to work out, you know, do I, should I stay or should I go? And the real question really I was asking was, could I trust this person ever again? And today when I'm working with brands, you know, when we're building a brand, our brand is our promise to the marketplace and to the world, as Tom Peters would say.

And so really when I'm working with people to build their personal brand and brands in general, the thing we're really working with is, are you a trusted brand? Does what you're saying that you do, does the promise that you make match up to the behaviour of your staff, of your teams, of my experience coming to you as a customer? So I'm super thrilled to be able to get it out.

We talk about the nine key skills to building trust in you as a leader and as your brand. So things like we talk about authenticity, empathy, credibility, your identity as a leader, vulnerability. What are the roles that these things play nowadays?

Because it's not about command and control anymore. It's about connection and compassion and insight and understanding. So super wrapped to be able to get this out, help you to build communities, how to build your tribe.

Because what I was noticing when I was out helping people build their brand, a lot of people thought it was just about how you dress and how you present yourself, which is not a bad place to start, but there's more to it than that. You actually need to be a trusted brand. So if you want to download, you can jump on the website, you can purchase your copy, you can go to Amazon and all the other platforms online.

Or if you don't have any budget, you can jump on the website, my own website, and go to jane-anderson.com and go to the books page and you can download a free copy. And I don't even need your email address. So jump on that and you can grab that.

I've been talking a little bit about this, particularly with CEOs and helping them building their brand, because we've had a lot of changes in Australia lately, particularly around Royal Commission and any industry that comes out of Royal Commission. We're talking about how to rebuild trust after going through something like that. So jump on that and I'd love to hear your feedback, comments, and also any reviews on Amazon would be awesome.

So today, though, my goal is to introduce you to somebody who really gets trust. And this lady is an expert in her space, and she talks about something called psychological safety or interpersonal safety. So what that essentially is is how you create trust and connection between people, in particular teams, so that people collaborate and connect, and so that you can create high performance.

A lot of this work, you know, there's so many people who have done work in this space, from people like Patrick Lencioni with the five dysfunctions of a team. He talks a lot about trust, talks a lot about dysfunction, yes. He talks a lot about creating psychological safety or connection within teams to create high performance.

And, you know, organisations that are out there, they just don't have, you know, the budgets anymore. They're super lean. They don't have the ability to carry people that are underperforming.

So there's a huge demand for people like this person I'm interviewing today. So she is a psychologist. She is a speaker.

She is an author and mentor in helping people be the best version of themselves. She spent three decades as a psychologist, developing her IP on how fear and habits restrict our achievement and communication. And she really just really focuses on working with people who are trying to build agile workforces.

She is really obsessed about ripples of behaviour, both good and bad. And she talks about people feeling safe enough to be the best version of themselves. She works with people to help them become really self-managing, to be able to create and demand trust from people and to drive growth through conversations and responsibility to their collective goals.

She's the founder of something called the Safe Space Program that enables leaders to achieve remarkable trust and connection. And the safety created in this program enables the tolerance of discomfort, which is not always easy, getting through the discomfort of difficult conversations, innovation and change, and in particular, being able to create a safe place to have the diversity of thinking in teams. Her results are remarkable.

And the influence and the impact that she has in helping people move quickly as a team to get decisions made, implement change and reduce risk as well. So I mentored and coached this incredible woman a couple of years ago. And I'm so glad we finally got to the point to be able to share her incredible expertise and knowledge with you.

So please welcome the amazing, the extraordinary Dr. Amy Silver. Enjoy. Hi there and welcome to the Jane Anderson show where we talk all things about personal branding.

We talk about influence, leadership and connection. And I am super excited that you are joining us today because as you know, we're all about people and we say that people buy from people and they buy from people who they know, who they like. And the big one is who they trust.

And when I think about the word trust, I think about this lady that we're going to be having a chat with today. So the lady we're going to be talking to today is one of my favourite people, Dr. Amy Silver. So Dr. Amy Silver is a psychologist. She is a speaker, an author and mentor on building cultures of courageous collaboration to create remarkable growth. Her background includes working as a clinical psychologist and she has been an academic tutor for Oxford University as in Oxford in the UK. She spent three decades developing IP on how fear and habit restrict our growth and achievement.

And now she works mainly in the professional services, public services, particularly those who are embracing the move towards a more connected and agile workforce. She's obsessed with the ripples that our behaviours have and passionate about people feeling safe enough to be the very best of themselves. Amy regularly publishes on growth, trust and collaboration.

And she has a fantastic blog called Silver Linings, which I love the name. And her book, Conversations Create Growth, shows managers how to lead performance conversations that drive engagement and achievement. And she's currently working on her new book, The Safe Space, which I cannot wait for it to come out, which is very exciting.

I keep telling people about it and it will be around for courageous collaboration, which is the essential for team and cultural success for business growth. She has a doctorate in clinical psychology, a master's in forensic psychology, master's in performance and a bachelor of science and honours in psychology. She's worked as a practising clinical psychologist and academic tutor and researcher at Oxford University in the UK.

And after her career in clinical psychology, she's worked in corporate for 15 years using psychological knowledge, trust and collaboration to improve growth after a short stint as a professional actress. Is there anything this woman cannot do? Please welcome Dr. Amy Silver.
Thank you so much. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you so much for your time.

I know how busy you are and all the amazing work that you're doing. And you're just on this absolute trajectory with the work that you're doing with clients. So thanks so much for making the time.

And it's so nice to catch up with you anyway. We haven't seen each other in a while, so we kind of do podcasts and videos and just record our catch ups anyway. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

It's a pleasure always to talk to you. Oh, my pleasure. So Amy, you know, I obviously know we've worked very closely together.

So for everyone else's benefit, I'd love for you to explain a little bit about two things I really want to tap into today with you is I want to know the business of Dr. Amy Silver. So most of our clients or people who are listening have built their personal brand of their business under their name dot com and becoming influencers in their field and running tribes and chiefing their tribes and all that sort of stuff. So we'd love and a big part of that is being able to build trust in who we are as an expert and trust in the people in the tribes we create and run.

So I'd love to tap into, can we go under the bonnet a little bit on Dr. Amy Silver's brand as an influencer and then your expertise and how that applies to personal brands. So first of all, tell us about your practice. How do you start?

Tell us about the clients you work with and types of programs you deliver.

[Speaker 2] (12:26 - 14:08)
So as you said, very beautifully, I am a psychologist and what I do at work is to help people have stronger relationships and through those stronger relationships, they get more done and they feel good while they're doing it. So the programs that I have are built around either courageous conversations, so how to have a conversation that creates growth, either for those people that you manage or those people around you. And then I have a specific program called the safe space, which works on driving the psychological safety in a team or in a division or an organization and using that psychological safety to enable people to have courageous conversations rather than polite conversations where they don't really say what they mean, but they say what they mean when they go out the room.

And a lot of my clients are sort of government agencies or professional services. So people, I think trust, as you know, you're also in that world very much of thinking about trusting. In that world of service, there's a big need for people to understand trust.

But while it's been very focused on building trust with clients, I think we're just turning to realize how trust internally makes a massive difference to their efficiency. A lot of the work that I do is with people who have started to realize that to create a high performance team, they need trust and safety around it.

[Speaker 1] (14:08 - 14:30)
And so when you are working with these programs, so you typically would deliver this in the format of being some workshops with like team sort of building exercises and they would go, you might do it a day or two here, or they could be larger programs. Is that right? Or you might go in and run it through the entire organization?

Is that kind of how it works?

[Speaker 2] (14:30 - 16:02)
It generally starts at the leadership level. And then we built it down. Although sometimes the leadership teams aren't as brave as they need to be to do a program like this.

So we start in the middle and work our way up. It's always where I think is the leadership do send the tones really around some of this stuff. We work team based projects.

So we really focus on the idea that safety is created in a small group rather than a big one. So we work on the system of sort of sending a positive virus through the organization by creating these little hubs of safety in teams. And then across the organization, they can start to collaborate across teams.

And that really sends the cultural tone in a different direction. But yeah, a lot of the work that we do is team based. Each individual goes through a process of self leadership, so they understand how they as individuals perform and react when they're around other people.

And then we get them together as a team to work on some trust building. And it's not sort of walking across potholes, but it's really trying to drive the connection between them so that they can have honest and authentic relationships based on who they really are as a person and what they have to think and bring to the table. So we're building those connections across the teams.

[Speaker 1] (16:02 - 17:28)
Right. And so these are big programs that you deliver. This is such a fundamental need that organizations have and I love the uniqueness of and plus all the credibility that comes with you of all the work you've done.

This is hearing it from the horse's mouth. You've actually done the research. You've applied the work around this concept of psychological safety.

I hadn't heard this term, but when I heard it, I was like, yeah. Because when I first started, Amy and I met at Thought Leaders Business School, and I remember when I first started with MAD, I remember the word safety coming up. I said, yeah, like people tell me stuff really easily.

I've always found that and I'd never really heard it said. I remember I had said the word safety ages ago, but I'd never heard this concept of psychological safety. And when I heard you explain it, I was like, oh, that's what it is.

Because I'd always thought it was trust and rapport. So can you explain the difference? Because I think this is really key to your expertise and your positioning and your uniqueness.

What's the difference between trust and psychological safety? Are they different things or are they the same or similar?

[Speaker 2] (17:30 - 20:19)
They've probably got a similar root to them, which comes around the emotion of fear. It's kind of the opposite. But for me, it's around being okay with what you think and who you are and bringing that to the table.

So often in work situations, well in any group situations, we have expectations of how we are and who we are. And when we feel safe, we're able to pull on all those different bits of ourselves. So we don't put up barriers, we don't put up a maze of yeses and noes that we've got to travel through in order to present who it is that we think is going to be accepted or acceptable.

Are we being funny enough or are we being open enough or vulnerable enough or strong enough or clear enough or cool enough or all these things? Are we, are we, are we? And all of that sort of is mental fog that gets in the way of us really, truly being able to access what we've got of our clever brains.

And we're much cleverer than we are when we're together. When we're together, we do something weird. We have this whole area of group psychology that interferes with how much we can be ourselves.

So there's a few things that are related to this is how do we be the best version of ourselves? And that's something that we're in charge of. The second is how do we get the best out of those people around us?

So are we actually taking responsibility for, you know, what other people are able to access or are we actually inhibiting what they're able to bring? And then the third is really, do we understand what it is that we can do together? Do we actually understand if, if, if we really kind of nailed what it was that our purpose was together, could we do more?

So all of those things that we work on in the group, but the, you know, collaboration starts with me, you know, I have to actually understand myself in order for me to be a good collaborator. So that's where we always start is self leadership. Do you know what you get triggered in terms of your thinking and behavior when you're in a group or with other people?

Do you understand what, what intimidates you or makes you frustrated or makes you complacent? You know, makes you silent? Do you understand all of those things?

Because if you can't really be conscious of it, then you're putting yourself in quite a, or you're just not taking charge of who you are and what you've got to offer.

[Speaker 1] (20:20 - 21:10)
And that's, it's interesting because, you know, we've got organizations trying to do more with less. So we're trying to cope with change. So we've already got all these other pressures that are happening.

And so if we can cope, or if we can somehow band together or create that connection or that collaboration in that, in that team that I can be myself, then somehow I'm thinking that I can kind of cope with all this disruption that's going on or being able to evolve, because I've got to now start to think creatively. I've got to think of solving problems differently. And am I prepared to have a go and risk failure?

Will I still be accepted and loved in that tribe or who the people I'm connected to? Would that be right?

[Speaker 2] (21:11 - 22:24)
Yeah. And look, I think our workplaces are changing and I think egos used to be the prevailing kind of way in which we ran business, you know, it was, and we would follow the leader, whereas now things are moving too fast. There's too much, as you say, there's too much chaos.

We don't have time to build relationships. We can't, we can't rely on time as the, you know, as the main feeder for trust. We actually need to be higher functioning than that.

And, you know, with all the, you know, threat of kind of jobs being taken by robots and all of that, we actually just need to really polish our human skills and our human skills. And what I think our superpower is, is our ability to flex who we are. But for some reason, when we're younger, we sort of tune out of that and decide that we're set.

Right. And for us to be really better functioning and being really capable of what we could do together, we need to be able to flex around our own styles and our own behaviours so that we can really make better connections with more people faster.

[Speaker 1] (22:24 - 24:23)
Right. And so you've got the book, which is around creating growth conversations, and then you've got the safe space coming up shortly. So you obviously speak as part of your Dr. Amy Silver brand. So you speak, do workshops, and I'm imagining you're doing some coaching as well. And so your practice is based here and you're based in Melbourne and you have some team that are virtual as well as face to face. And so in terms of, and you work across a really broad range of industries.

So that's the Dr. Amy Silver brand, essentially. And your expertise is in building trust collaboration and safety in teams or psychological safety to create high performance. So that's Dr. Amy Silver. So then, then what I'm really keen to find out is the connection between your expertise that you have when you apply that to organisations. But you, like me, we're around influences all the time, personal brands, thought leaders. And, you know, that's another game again, because we have to build trust, we have to build psychological safety, but we're not within a team.

And we're working more so with the clients we work with. What do you see or that you notice that people do really well or could be doing better when they're trying to build psychological safety and trust and growth conversations? If I'm an expert in my field, so if I'm an influencer listening today, what are some of the things that you see out there that people don't do really, really well, that actually may even deplete trust when they're building their, their practice and their personal brand as a leader?

In their space, like in their expertise versus those that those who do it really well, what are some things they do? And what do you notice that probably don't go so well? You must see it all the time.

[Speaker 2] (24:24 - 28:24)
I'll talk about me and what hasn't gone well for me. Because before I did DrAmySilver.com, I was, I guess, you know, being able to, I had a really strong understanding of how people change and why people think and behave in certain ways based in the psychology world. And I had a really good understanding of how we work together from that world and then also from acting.

And along the way, I, you know, there were heaps of things that I could do, you know, I could train people on how to be better presenters, or I could train them on how to change in any which direction that they wanted to. And so I created an organization or a company, I was trying to build my own brand, I guess. But I tried to do that by offering lots of different things to lots of different people.

And essentially, I was marketing myself as a trainer, or as a facilitator. And pretty much if you asked me to do anything, I would say, yes. And I think, over the course of the last few years, and obviously you as a mentor of mine has been a huge influence in that, is standing tall in what it is that I uniquely bring.

Because I think that that's actually helped me create trust. I think it has been really easy to then be authentic with who it is that I'm being and not apologetic. And so when I was trying to sell myself as a trainer, I would be trying to represent what I thought the other person wanted to see with their trainers.

So I would try and emulate or try and be what I thought a good trainer would be. And so I was pretending to be something and felt fraudulent. Because I wasn't sure whether this is actually what a good trainer would do.

And so, and I was trying to be the expert in everything and anything. And that felt a bit weird. So the more that I've gone on and the more that I've stood in my uniqueness and who I am, the more I don't have to apologize if I, I don't know, I'm sort of, I can be a little bit, I think I'm just, I can be quite real, you know.

And so if, if, if I sort of say the wrong thing, or I, I can make it, sometimes I make a bit of a cheeky joke that sort of, you know, it's just who I am. And I don't have to sort of double think it and kind of go, Oh my God, that was a bit weird. I said that or, you know, or I walked into that meeting and I didn't really fit what I think they need to be.

But that's okay, because I'm being me and I'm not trying to be something that I think they want to see, which is, you know, that maze that I was talking about having to negotiate the expression of who I am through all these ideas of what I think they, they need or what I think they want. I can just be me. And if they like it, then they buy it.

And if they don't, then they won't. But it's sort of, I don't have to pretend to be something that I'm not. And I think by doing so, it's really easy for people to trust me because I'm being me.

So they, they very quickly get to see who I am. When I, when I see people, you know, I see a lot of behaviours in meetings and in organisations that come from a place of fear. And that fear inhibits who they are.

And it goes one of two ways. They can be not aggressive, aggressive, maybe too strong a word, but they can be, they can be defensive.

[Speaker 1] (28:24 - 28:25)
Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (28:26 - 30:05)
Hiding who they are by sort of batting things away. If it gets close, that to me just signals somebody that's going to be quite, you know, I have to do quite a lot to negotiate in there to get them to feel safe enough to be open so that I can work with them. Because if they're very defensive, you know, I know that they've got all these guards up and I'm going to have to move around their maze to get inside.

And the other side of things is if they're, if they're fearful and that's pulling them back and they don't want to put themselves forward, then it's actually very difficult to trust them as well. Because you don't really know what they're saying and what they're thinking. So I think it's, I always come back down to, to fear and looking for fear.

And I think fear is the, is the thing that pushes people away. I think if they sense that you're fearful, it's going to be hard for them to trust you because they don't know where you're, you know, where you're going to go. You're going to go into defensive, you're going to go into anxiety and both of those are difficult to, to connect with.

And I think, you know, when I see people trying to, trying to sell or trying to be in there and they have that fear that's promoting that desperate look or that kind of, you know, oh, I'll do anything that you want me to do. That's what actually makes it hard to trust. When you see people that are really clear and they go, do you know what, that's really lovely to be asked to do that, but I don't, I don't do that.

That's not my thing. That's easy to trust. Cause I'm kind of like, okay, you know, I see those boundaries, that clarity that you have on who you are and what you do.

And so therefore I can trust that.

[Speaker 1] (30:05 - 30:40)
Yeah. I love that because you almost, what you're saying is, is you're almost in some ways, you're on case study in some ways, cause you've had to hack yourself in your own psychological safety and having to create so much safety internally for yourself to be able to say, it's almost like, even if you fail, it was like this self talk of, even if you fail today, or if you don't get that sale today, I'm still going to love you. You're going to be fine.

Like, you know, it's, you have to be your own best friend in this game.

[Speaker 2] (30:40 - 31:47)
Yeah. And I think that's, yeah, that's a really, it's, it's, it's, it's a really good summary because I think what we, what we look for when we're trying to build trust is we're looking into the other person to, to start to create that for us. Can I trust this person?

And actually it comes from me, you know, it's my, it's my responsibility to create that trust. And if I get knocked back, well then it's my decision. Do I want to go back again?

You know, I'm in charge. So, and I think to create trust and to create safety, I have to take responsibility for what's happening here and not be a passive, not passively kind of wait for the other person to trust me. I have to go, go and get it and work hard to create it.

And, and, and, and also kind of work out whether I want to work with them, you know, if they really do not, if I, if I can't think, if I don't think that I'm going to be able to make them feel safe enough to be them, then I don't really necessarily want to be working with them anyway.

[Speaker 1] (31:48 - 32:34)
I think that's so valuable for female personal brands. Like we're having to, we're selling ourselves, we're selling a soul. You know, this is what I, this is the work I do is what I know how to do.

Being at, like you said, you've got to go out and chase it. Because I think what, I don't know if you've noticed this, but I noticed that, you know, sometimes, particularly in the early days where you might be sitting back and going, like you said, you're sitting back and hoping that people have built up enough trust. Yeah.

Am I good enough? And are you going to have enough conviction and, and safety within yourself and be mindful of the fear, don't you? Because that fear is of rejection, fear that I'm not going to make enough money, fear that I'm not going to be able to, you know, pay my bills.

[Speaker 2] (32:34 - 32:58)
Or that I'm going to say the wrong thing, you know, that I'm going to mess up by not saying this or by saying this, you know, and that sort of overthinking. And I think if you really stand in who you are, and you're really clear on your style and your personality, and you just be you, then you haven't got any, you can't trip up because as I say, they either want it or they don't.

[Speaker 1] (32:58 - 32:58)
Yes.

[Speaker 2] (32:59 - 33:04)
But at least you're being clear over what you're doing and what you're saying.

[Speaker 1] (33:04 - 34:05)
Yeah, I think I was listening to, I think it was either Matt Church or Peter Cook recently who said, as long as you're coming with the intention, like if you're coming with a really high level of positive intent, and then even if you mix up your words a little bit, the intention will still create the connection and the trust and, and then you can kind of take it from there. So it's intention over perfection, I think it was, was that, you know, you'll still, you might fumble through it. But if you if it's really about creating a result for the other person and getting a solution for them, and, and you clear on exactly what you do and don't do.

We talk a little bit in some of the other episodes around Michael Port's book, Yourself Solid, who says, you know, the red rope policy where he says, you know, these are the people who are let in, and these are people who are not let in. I think that sort of boundary around career is a big part of contributing to that. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (34:07 - 34:33)
And look, I've had situations where I've had to go into, you know, rooms full of people or like, you know, a boardroom. And it's all very dark mahogany and very kind of corporate and shiny glass and, and men in suits, who seemed very impressive and, and things that really would trigger my psychological safety to drop. Yeah, yeah.

You know, things where I would walk in.

[Speaker 1] (34:33 - 34:33)
That's intimidation.

[Speaker 2] (34:34 - 34:37)
Out of, yeah, and it's not but it's not them doing it.

[Speaker 1] (34:37 - 34:39)
No, it's your perception.

[Speaker 2] (34:39 - 35:04)
But I'm doing when I walk into that space that I, my psychological safety drops for some reason because of a spike in sort of my expectations of what I think they need to see in order for them to start to connect with me. And I think of old what I would have done is I would have tried to fit in. And I would have tried to do my very best to look like I should be there.

[Speaker 1] (35:04 - 35:04)
Okay.

[Speaker 2] (35:06 - 35:09)
Whereas now what I would do is just be me.

[Speaker 1] (35:09 - 35:09)
Yes.

[Speaker 2] (35:09 - 35:41)
And if they don't like it, then, then I don't want to be in that room either. So, because I can't pretend anymore. So, whereas in the beginning, I think I would have really, you know, I would have put heels on and lipstick and I would have tied my hair back and I would have done what it was that I thought they wanted to see, which is probably not what they wanted to see.

Would have made me feel like I fitted more. Whereas now I'm just like, yeah, this is me. And this is what I know.

And this is what I can do. And if you want it, then, then let's do it.

[Speaker 1] (35:41 - 36:25)
Yeah, I love your style. You really do have this ease with which you carry yourself. If you get the opportunity to get to see Amy speak, make sure you do because she's a fantastic speaker.
I, I want to ask you a big part of you, which is a perfect segue to my next question was a part of your brand. And we talked about this recently, Amy and I spoke at a conference or an event just, just recently. And so part of your brand that is really interesting is that having been an actress, can you tell us a bit about that?

Like, is this part to you that you go, oh, wow, really? What, what type of acting did you do and all that sort of thing? And how does that play out as part of your brand?

[Speaker 2] (36:26 - 39:37)
Look, I think it's actually the same, the same conversation and something that really, again, is only over the last year sort of been, has emerged for me is that that was part of my world that I was actually keeping secret. Because to me, I thought, well, how could you be a serious corporate person and have, you know, and have had a, not particularly successful, but you know, a couple of years worth of professional acting? How do you kind of, you know, how could you be doing subway commercials on, on TV and, you know, sell these huge programs to these, these, you know, inverted comments, important people?

And whereas now I'm like, yeah, of course, you know, it's me. And it's where I learned some of my trade about what is important. You know, there's words on a script, but it's something ethereal that, that happens in a high performing team that happens when, when there's good communication, when there's good eye contact, where there's playing and there's clear boundaries and there's positive regard and there's a hope that you're creating something.

All of these things are absolutely fundamental to good teamwork. And the more anxious or the more fear there is in, in the teams, in the players, the, the, the worst the performance gets. All these tools and techniques about ownership, ownership of the space, ownership of your individual relationships, you know, good actors and a good director will spend a lot of time helping the, the actors in their, in their roles, build individual relationships outside of the text that's written for the play.

So you would maybe spend a day together in character with no script, but building a relationship to strengthen the relationship that then the audience might see on stage that they don't necessarily see the background of that, but you, you feel it because you feel the connection between the two people. And so there's, there's heaps of things in all the improvisation and play and, you know, and sort of experimenting and feeling kind of, yeah, Simon Dowling, who, who we both know as well. He's an amazing improviser and actor, and he also works with trust and connection and psychological safety.

And he does a whole heap of, of work in this area too. And I think there's something really fundamental about being light and being playful in relationships. We, we layer on all these sort of roles and expectations and, you know, who we need to be and, and in acting, there's just no time for that.

There's no, you know, you just play and it's fun and it's light and it's happy. And, and so yeah, I think that I think now I see all of the benefits of that, but for a while I did sort of felt ashamed of it, which is crazy. You feel like you've got to hide big, big sections of your life.

[Speaker 1] (39:37 - 41:23)
Yeah. And yet, you know, it's one of the things we talk about with, you know, and for those who are listening and going, how do you get that to connect? So, you know, if you're in Amy's case, like, you know, there's often metaphors that are in your life that help people to understand the concepts that you're trying to explain, because that part of your life is probably something that they're a little bit more familiar with.

And they can see the parallel and sometimes they can learn faster. But also one, one of the things is it makes you really unique. And it means that it's not, we're going to get anybody to come and talk about trust and psychological safety is that we want the Dr. Amy Silver version because we love what she does with, with the acting techniques that she's learned as a professional actor, which makes it so much more fun. So, so suddenly the value of, of our positioning in the market is we've shifted now from commoditization into a really powerful, high value brand, a personal brand that brings extraordinary value to, to clients. But there's, you know, there's, that's hard to compete with, you know, and there's only one of you and Simon Dowling does a different version. Again, we go Simon Dowling version.

So I just think that's so powerful that you've been able to tap into this part of you that most people, like you said, the clients I work with, you go, really? That's relevant. Are you sure?

And once you start to unpack it a little bit, you start to, have you found that like the more you started to unpack it?

[Speaker 2] (41:23 - 44:08)
Wow. Yeah. I'll just tell you something really quick.

That's so my plan for this year is to get a lot more strategic with my social media planning. Something that we've done as a team, my team, we've done sort of sporadically or we've done, you know, when we feel like it, I think we need to be a lot smarter and clearer about it. And one of the themes that we, that I'm really passionate about and really vocal about is diversity and feeling very strongly that, you know, one of the benefits of psychological safety is that we get more cognitive diversity.

So if in the room, there's a very dominant voice or people aren't kind of connected, then we lose the diversity of thinking that we could have. So that's one of the key benefits of working with me, I think, is that we get this cognitive diversity. So I'm very passionate about that.

And I'm very passionate about all sorts of diversity, obviously, gender and all sorts of, you know, any kind of diversity really I'm in for. Anyway, so I was talking to our social media planner, and we were talking about that. And when I was talking to her, I sort of said, you know, I even like diversity in socks.

I wear odd socks. I always wear odd socks. I don't like pairs of socks.

It really annoys me trying to find a pair. I just don't understand why. I pretty much always wear odd socks, sort of out of almost like this kind of weird resisting of something.

So yeah, so she said, Well, that's perfect. That's a perfect thing to kind of use as a social media tool is to focus on these odd socks, you know, and I was like, really, I've always kind of sort of, again, I've sort of hidden it or like, if I'd go to an important meeting, I'd sort of go, Oh, okay, I'll put on matching socks. So, you know, even little things like that, you just kind of go, Yeah, I'm just going to stand further and further into who I am, and feel okay with that, you know, and that's just me.

And, you know, I feel like I'm a nice person. I'm not a perfect person, but I'm nice. And, you know, why should I be trying to conform to what other people tell me to be?

So, yes, the more that I think about it, and the more I stand in it, and the more I surround myself with people like you and other people who are very strong in their conviction of who they are and what their brand is, the more confident I feel that I can stand in who I am and not try and be them, you know, I'm me.

[Speaker 1] (44:09 - 45:12)
And which is, I think that's really powerful, because even if you're out on your own as a personal brand is to surround yourself with other people who are a tribe, because, you know, this is lonely work. And like you said, when you're around people who are seen, you know, they help you to still be able to bring out these parts of you, when you would perhaps never consider doing it otherwise, you know, a big part of that is being able to get the right people around you getting yourself into a tribe. Because when you're selling you, to hack that personal psychological safety, you still have to somehow have something or some sense of connection with a tribe or a group of people who will love you still unconditionally, even if you do something wrong, or you fail along the way, they'll still be there.

And that will give you the opportunity to try those things and step into it and have a go and, and or you're seeing other people do it. And you're like, Oh, maybe I could do that. Would that be right?

[Speaker 2] (45:12 - 45:41)
Yeah, exactly. And I yeah, I definitely see that. Like, I think when I was sort of at the beginning of my, of this birth of me, of Dr. Amy Silver, I think I was very, I'd look at other people doing things. And I go, Oh, I wouldn't do that. Or I wouldn't, you know, and I was sort of almost doing it from quite a critical, you know, or the how they putting themselves front and center, or who gives them the right to do that? You know, that's how I was.

[Speaker 1] (45:41 - 45:42)
Who the hell do they think they are?

[Speaker 2] (45:42 - 45:51)
And I think that that holds you back having that thought because you're looking at the people thinking that and then so then they you think, well, that's what other people are going to be thinking about me.

[Speaker 1] (45:52 - 45:52)
Yes.

[Speaker 2] (45:52 - 46:40)
And you've kind of got to get over that because people think what they need to think, you know, that's, you know, you've just got to, you know, you've got to go cold turkey on it and just get it, get it done. You know, it's a bit squeamish at the beginning, but the more you do, the more you realize it's just a game and, you know, you're just trying things out. And when you see other people playing the game and trying on a different angle, they're trying on a different idea, you know, doing videos online or they're, you know, doing a campaign for something or that, whatever they're doing is interesting.

That's an interesting idea. How would I do that? What would make sense for me?

And it's, it's a lot nicer in that world where you're just watching and observing other people playing the game too. It's just, it's, it's fun.

[Speaker 1] (46:40 - 47:33)
Yeah. Oh, look, it's been wonderful to have you and, and to be able to tap into this really unique angle. We don't often get to go under the bonnet.

Sometimes, you know, when we're talking to people, we see all this sort of just the products that they sell and, you know, their websites and stuff. So it's such a gift to be able to tap into this part of, of your expertise, what happens behind the brand, your work that you do. But also today it's been about also sharing your expertise in the context of building a personal brand and how to hack that in yourself and your own personal psychological safety to be able to bring out the best in ourselves as well.

So, so I love that. So thank you for being so generous in your knowledge and experience and sharing so much of your journey in yourself as well. So very grateful to have you on the show today.

[Speaker 2] (47:33 - 47:34)
Thanks for having me, Jane.

[Speaker 1] (47:35 - 47:55)
My pleasure. So before we go, tell me where can we go to find out if we want to? There might be people who are looking to get you to speak at their conferences.

If we want to have an eye out for your book when it comes out soon. And if we want to organize for you to come and do some work with us with our teams or something like that, where would we go? Where are we best to get in touch with you?

[Speaker 2] (47:57 - 48:03)
DrAmySilver.com and all the handles Twitter and Instagram and all of that are DrAmySilver.

[Speaker 1] (48:05 - 48:16)
All right. Terrific. Okay.

All right. Well, we will see you. I'll see you in a few weeks.

But thanks again for joining us. I'm super grateful to have you today. So talk to you soon.