Episode 91- What Is Attuned Leadership? Dr Michelle Pizer's Framework for Better Leaders
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Some leaders seem to know exactly what their people need before they ask for it. They notice when someone is struggling, they open doors at the right moment, and they somehow bring out the best in everyone around them, all while still hitting the organisation's targets.
Dr Michelle Pizer has a name for this: attuned leadership.
Pizer is an organisational psychologist and executive coach who has spent her career studying and teaching this approach. She holds a PhD built on the topic, has coached leaders inside Google, KPMG, BHP, and Goldman Sachs, and has been featured in Business Insider, Channel 9, Radio National, The Age, and news.com.au.
In a conversation on the Jane Anderson Show episode with Dr Michelle Pizer, Pizer explained where attuned leadership comes from, how it works in practice, and why more senior leaders are turning to it, particularly in the aftermath of restructures. This article breaks down her framework and what it means for anyone trying to lead people well.
Dr Michelle Pizer's Path to Attuned Leadership
Pizer's route into organisational psychology wasn't planned. She first encountered psychology almost by accident, choosing it as an elective subject in her first year of university without knowing what the word meant. She did well enough to be singled out by her dean, a moment she has described as pivotal, given she grew up alongside three siblings she considers gifted.
From there, her career took several turns before settling. She worked in marketing, then HR, then spent time in management consulting at what was then Ernst & Young, before moving into market research, where her analytical strengths in statistics and research design stood out.
A turning point came after her father passed away. Facing that kind of loss led her to question the direction of her career, and she left her job without another one lined up. She began working with adults with mild intellectual disabilities, started (and later converted) a master's degree, and spent four years volunteering as a counsellor in a community agency, all before starting the PhD that would eventually shape her professional identity.
It was during her PhD research into emotions and relationships in the workplace, combined with weekly supervision from a psychoanalyst she calls "the great one," that the ideas behind attuned leadership took shape. She was simultaneously building her private practice, cold-emailing doctors from a printed directory to generate her first referrals, a process that took three months to produce a single client.
That practice grew into the coaching and consulting work she does today, working primarily one-on-one with senior leaders, alongside some organisational consulting, speaking, and training. This grounding, built from years of clinical listening combined with formal research into workplace psychology, is part of what distinguishes attuned leadership from leadership advice based on personal opinion or anecdote alone.
What Is Attuned Leadership?
Attuned leadership is a style of leading that centres on being genuinely connected to, and in touch with, the people you lead, rather than managing purely through authority, process, or output.
The idea grew out of Pizer's academic background in the psychodynamics of organisations, an area she studied at both master's and PhD level. It draws directly on the work of psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott, particularly his concept of a "holding environment": the setting a parent creates to help a child feel safe and secure enough to develop.
Pizer first began applying this thinking not in a classroom, but on the job. Early in her career, she was put in charge of a research team for the first time and had no established playbook for how to lead it. She found herself drawing on the idea of a "good enough" parent: someone responsive to what a person actually needs, not just what's expected of them.
That responsiveness is the core of attuned leadership. As Pizer put it, it's about listening not just to the words someone says, but to what's underneath them, the same way a parent learns to read an infant who has no words at all.
Why Attunement Matters More Than Authority
Traditional leadership models often emphasise direction-setting and accountability. Attuned leadership doesn't discard those things, but it starts from a different place: understanding what an individual actually wants for their own career, then working out how to meet the organisation's needs and the person's needs at the same time.
Pizer has been explicit that this isn't about forcing people into a predetermined mould. Each person she's led has needed something slightly different, much like, she notes, no two children have identical needs. An attuned leader's job is to notice that difference and respond to it.
How Attuned Leaders Operate Day to Day
Attuned leadership isn't an abstract philosophy, it shows up in specific, repeatable behaviours. Based on Pizer's own account of leading teams and coaching executives, three stand out.
Listening Beyond the Words
The starting point is always listening, properly, not performatively. Pizer describes this as picking up on what's going on for someone beneath the surface, especially when they're overwhelmed or have just received feedback they didn't want to hear.
In her coaching work, she's found that people often can't think clearly or problem-solve effectively until they feel heard and validated first. Skipping that step and jumping straight to solutions tends to backfire.
Tailoring Development to the Individual
Once a leader understands what someone needs, the next step is closing the gap between where that person is and where they want to go, through mentoring, training, or hands-on support, depending on what actually fits.
Pizer has described this phase as intensive at first, particularly because people don't always know what they need themselves. Part of an attuned leader's role is helping someone figure that out before any development plan can work.
Knowing When to Step Back
The final piece, and often overlooked, is letting go. Once someone has built the skills and confidence they need, an attuned leader steps back rather than continuing to manage closely.
Pizer has called this the most rewarding part of the process, describing the growth she's seen in people she's led this way as dramatic once they're given room to run, a shift some describe as "exponential," or a hockey-stick curve of sudden capability.
It's worth being honest about the trade-off here: attuned leadership takes more effort upfront than simply issuing instructions. Pizer has acknowledged that working out what someone genuinely needs (particularly when they don't know themselves) can be intensive in the early stages. The pay-off comes later, once that person can operate independently and a leader can genuinely let go, rather than continuing to check in out of habit or anxiety.
This is also where attuned leadership differs most clearly from micromanagement dressed up as support. The goal isn't ongoing closeness for its own sake, it's building someone's capability to the point where close supervision is no longer necessary.
Why Senior Leaders Are Turning to Attuned Leadership Now
Pizer's client base has shifted over the years, but a consistent pattern has emerged among the senior leaders she works with today. It also reflects a broader shift in Australian workplaces: psychosocial hazards, including poor support and low psychological safety, are now formally recognised under Australian work health and safety law, giving leaders a regulatory reason, not just a cultural one, to take this seriously.
Leading Teams Through Restructures
At the time of her conversation with Jane Anderson, Pizer noted that restructuring (and specifically the unintended consequences of restructuring) had come up with three separate clients in a single month. She's typically brought in to work with the people left managing the fallout: senior, but no longer as senior as they were, and dealing with teams that are unsettled as a result.
Attuned leadership becomes especially relevant here, because it gives leaders a way to rebuild trust and re-engage people who feel like they've lost ground, without simply issuing new directives from the top. Safe Work Australia's Model Code of Practice on managing psychosocial hazards specifically flags poorly managed organisational change as a workplace risk, reinforcing why this kind of leadership matters most during and after restructures.
Retaining and Developing Ambitious Talent
Pizer draws a distinction between two groups of leaders she coaches. More senior leaders, including CEOs, tend to focus on how to get more out of their people and become a better boss. Leaders in or aspiring to the C-suite tend to be more focused on their own career progression, driven by ambition that Pizer says she genuinely enjoys working with.
In both cases, she's found that leaders often underestimate the impact they have on the people around them. Becoming more attuned, both to themselves and to their teams, tends to help leaders get where they want to go, simply because people work better, and stay longer, under leaders who make them feel safe and understood.
How to Start Practising Attuned Leadership
Attuned leadership isn't a certification or a fixed program, it's a practice that develops over time. Based on Pizer's own approach, a few starting points stand out for any leader who wants to build it:
Listen before you respond. Resist the urge to solve a problem before someone feels heard.
Ask what the person wants, not just what the role requires of them.
Expect to invest time upfront. Tailoring support to an individual takes more effort early on, but pays off once they're operating independently.
Deliberately stepping back once someone has the skills to succeed, continuing to manage closely after that point can undermine the growth you've helped create.
Notice your own impact. Even experienced, senior leaders can underestimate how their behaviour affects the people around them.
Leaders who want to go deeper into this way of working may benefit from executive coaching built around your team.
Frequently Asked Questions
What is attuned leadership?
Attuned leadership is a leadership approach focused on being genuinely connected to and responsive to the people you lead. It involves listening closely, understanding what someone needs to grow, and adjusting your support to the individual rather than applying a one-size-fits-all approach.
Where does the concept of attuned leadership come from?
The framework draws on the work of psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott, particularly his concept of a "holding environment": the safe, responsive setting a parent creates for a child. Dr Michelle Pizer developed attuned leadership by applying this thinking to organisational and workplace psychology through her academic research and coaching practice.
How is attuned leadership different from other leadership styles?
Unlike leadership models built primarily around authority, process, or output, attuned leadership starts with genuinely understanding what an individual needs, both from the organisation and for their own career, before deciding how to lead them. It also emphasises stepping back once someone has developed the skills to work independently, rather than continuing to manage closely.
Can attuned leadership help after a company restructure?
Yes. Dr Michelle Pizer has worked with several clients navigating the unintended consequences of restructures, where teams often feel unsettled or have lost seniority. Attuned leadership offers a way to rebuild trust and re-engage people during that kind of transition.
Who is Dr Michelle Pizer?
Dr Michelle Pizer is an organisational psychologist and executive coach who developed the attuned leadership framework. She holds a PhD in the area of emotions and relationships in the workplace, has coached leaders at organisations including Google, KPMG, BHP, and Goldman Sachs, and has been featured in outlets including Business Insider, Channel 9, Radio National, The Age, and news.com.au.
Conclusion
Attuned leadership offers a research-backed alternative to command-and-control management, one built on genuinely understanding the people you lead, not just directing them. For senior leaders navigating restructures, disengagement, or simply trying to get more out of their teams, Dr Michelle Pizer's framework provides a practical starting point grounded in real psychological theory and years of coaching experience.
For a deeper look at how this plays out with real clients, listen to the full conversation between Dr Michelle Pizer and Jane Anderson.
Work With Jane Anderson
If Dr Michelle Pizer’s story resonated with you, here are some ways to take the next step:
Women With Influence:Join a community of B2B women consultants, coaches, and advisors building world-class practices
1:1 Coaching:Work directly with Jane on your personal brand and business growth strategy
Influence Lab:Create a year’s worth of thought leadership content and turn your expertise into strategic assets for your consulting practice.
Key Takeaways from Today’s Episode:
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Jane Anderson introduces her podcast, "The Jane Anderson Brand New Show," which is designed for experts aiming to enhance their impact, influence, and income in their respective fields. She emphasizes the relational aspect of business, highlighting trust, likability, and familiarity as key components of successful professional relationships.
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Jane expresses her excitement for the listeners joining her show, which aims to amplify their presence in the professional world. She explains that the podcast primarily features interviews with women who are consultants, thought leaders, and advisors, often working in a business-to-business environment with various sizes of organizations. The objective is to delve into these women's journeys, explore their successful practices, and share valuable insights with the audience.
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Jane mentions several upcoming events aimed at supporting professionals in her network. She highlights the "Nurture Retreat" in Noosa, Queensland, focusing on self-care and business development. She also introduces upcoming guest speakers like Alessandra Edwards, a high-performance expert, and Keith Abraham, a seasoned keynote speaker and consultant, who will share their expertise on nurturing growth and self-care in professional practices.
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Jane continues to detail other notable guests, including Mandy Napier, a mindset expert, and talks about the "Content Creation Boot Camp" where participants can develop a year's worth of thought leadership content in two days. She encourages listeners to take advantage of early registration benefits for these programs.
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Jane introduces Dr. Michelle Pizer, an expert in attuned leadership who has worked with prestigious organizations and been widely featured in the media. Dr. Pizer's background includes a PhD focused on leadership and extensive experience in advisory and training roles.
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Dr. Pizer shares her unconventional path into psychology and consulting, detailing her academic achievements and professional transitions across various fields, including marketing, HR, and market research, before establishing her consulting practice. Her narrative illustrates a journey marked by curiosity, adaptability, and a continuous search for personal and professional fulfillment, which ultimately led her to found her practice. She also recounts the supportive yet challenging aspects of starting her own practice, emphasizing the importance of community and adaptability in her career development.
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Dr. Michelle Pizer recounts the early stages of establishing her counseling practice, initially struggling with getting referrals despite distributing her business cards to medical professionals in the city. Her academic credentials and inclusion of organizational consulting and executive coaching on her business materials eventually attracted attention. Though she had not yet performed executive coaching, her expertise aligned well with the demand, leading her to adapt quickly and effectively to this new role
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Dr. Pizer reflects on the importance of perseverance and the role of luck in her career, attributing her success to the extensive groundwork laid through her educational pursuits and volunteering. Her decade-long supervision with a psychoanalyst, whom she highly regards, significantly shaped her professional skills and approach. This experience, along with her constant career shifts earlier on, eventually led her to a more stable and fulfilling phase in her career, deeply engaging in the work she loves.
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Exploring the concept of attuned leadership, Dr. Pizer explains that it involves deeply connecting with and understanding others, drawing on her background in psychodynamics and the influential theories of Donald Winnicott. She describes her leadership style as creating a 'holding environment' similar to a nurturing parent, fostering psychological safety and responsiveness to individual needs. This approach not only involves listening and responding to the team but also helping them align their personal aspirations with organizational goals, thus promoting professional growth and development.
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Dr. Pizer discusses the powerful impact of attuned leadership, sharing feedback from former team members who appreciated her guidance and felt significantly supported under her leadership. She reflects on her initial counseling work, where she encountered clients suffering from workplace bullying, emphasizing the profound effect that attuned leadership can have on individuals within organizations. Her practice now focuses on helping leaders become more attuned, enhancing their effectiveness and the well-being of their teams.
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In her current practice, Dr. Pizer primarily engages in executive coaching on a one-to-one basis, though she also undertakes consulting projects, particularly in organizational restructuring. She addresses the complexities and unintended consequences of such changes, aiming to realign organizational actions with intended outcomes. Speaking engagements form a smaller part of her practice, providing her with opportunities to reflect on and share her expertise more broadly.
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Dr. Michelle Pizer appreciates the benefits of engaging in conversations like the one with Jane Anderson, noting that they stimulate reflection on her own practices. She enjoys the responsive nature of one-on-one interactions, which aligns with her attuned leadership approach. Michelle also mentions conducting workshops and training to teach these skills to others, emphasizing the importance of clear and effective communication in her field.
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Dr. Pizer discusses strategies that have been instrumental in growing her practice, particularly for those in the startup or growth phases of their careers. She stresses the importance of making oneself known in the professional community, recounting her initial efforts to send out letters and referrals, which was a significant first step despite the challenges. Additionally, she touches on the constraints of marketing as a registered psychologist, which requires careful communication about her services without overstepping professional boundaries.
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Michelle shares a personal anecdote about an unsuccessful attempt to host a webinar, which no one attended. She reflects on this experience as a learning opportunity, highlighting the importance of resilience and the support of colleagues during challenging times. This incident underscores her belief in the value of persistence and trying different approaches, even in the face of failure. She also emphasizes the psychological benefit of having subsequent projects or goals, which help maintain momentum and focus after setbacks.
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In concluding her discussion, Michelle describes marketing as a series of experiments where not every effort will be successful. She advises remaining adaptable and receptive to feedback, using her successful blog post as an example of unexpected success that can arise from simple, seemingly minor efforts. She encourages embracing current trends and public discourse to stay relevant and impactful in one's field.
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Michelle expresses gratitude for the opportunity to share her insights and invites listeners to follow her work on attuned leadership through various platforms, including LinkedIn and her upcoming newsletter. Her parting words emphasize the ongoing nature of her work and her commitment to contributing to the field of leadership and organizational development.
Full Show Transcript:
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(0:09 - 0:30)
Hi there, my name's Jane Anderson and this is the Jane Anderson Brand New Show. It's the podcast for experts who want to have greater impact, influence and income for their businesses and careers. As experts, we know that people buy from people and work with people they know, like, and trust.
(0:31 - 0:51)
So I'm so glad you're here because it's that time again now to really amplify how you show up in the world. Hi there and welcome to the Jane Anderson Show. I'm so thrilled that you are here today and to be joining the Jane Anderson Show.
(0:52 - 1:38)
If you're new to the show, I interview women who have consulting and thought leadership and advisory practices who are typically working with business to business and working sometimes with large organisations, medium organisations or sometimes they might work with small business as well. So the purpose of the podcast is to introduce you to some of the people I've worked with, go behind the scenes, find out a little bit more about their story, how did they get to where they are and also go a little bit behind the scenes. So, what are some of the things that they've implemented in their practice to help them to grow? These women are typically successful, they've had their practices for some time and so they've got some of the battle scars and they have some really great insights and things to share with you.
(1:39 - 1:56)
So we have a very special guest today, which I'll introduce very shortly. Some of the things that are coming up, if you are in this space and you feel like you need some help or want to catch up with some other people who are doing this type of work, we have a few things coming up. We have the Nurture Retreat coming up in July, which is exciting.
(1:56 - 2:17)
So we have two and a half days up at beautiful Noosa in Queensland, right on the beach. We have two and a half days, which is all about how to nurture and self-care and looking after yourself as well as being able to do some work on your business. So we'll look at some of the things to be able to nurture and cultivate that growth in your practice.
(2:17 - 2:31)
We have some very special guests coming on to speak. So we have people like Alessandra Edwards, who is a high performance expert and really works around energy in the DNA of high performance. She's worked with lots of thought leaders and she totally gets this space.
(2:31 - 2:44)
So she's agreed to come along and share her insights and be able to go away and learn what you can do to really optimise your own energy. You know, this is a lonely game and there's only one of you. So we're going to do everything we can to look after ourselves.
(2:45 - 3:02)
We've also got the one and only Keith Abraham coming to speak. Keith is the guru of speaking. He's been around delivering this type of work for over 30 years and one of the most experienced keynote speakers and consultants, advisors in the country.
(3:02 - 3:19)
So he has been a wonderful advocate for our community and for women in consulting and thought leadership. So he's agreed to come in and share some of the things he's done to be able to do some self-care and to be able to nurture the growth in his practice. And we also have Mandy Napier.
(3:19 - 3:33)
Mandy Napier is a mindset expert and she works with she's typically come out of working with high performance athletes, but she understands what this world is like. So we have some great special guests coming along. So the early bird closes very soon.
(3:33 - 4:04)
So make sure you jump on and register. We'd love to see you there. And then the other thing that I've just put up on the website is the content creation boot camp.
We have our next one coming up. I typically just run two of these each year. We did one in February and the next one will be on at beautiful Kingscliff on the Gold Coast.
And we'll have that. It'll be over the two days and we create 12 months worth of thought leadership in two days. So we've run this program for many years.
(4:05 - 4:18)
We've had over 600 people go through this program. And so we have lots of people who have frequent fly points on the program. They come back each time because we've got to keep cultivating that thinking and that IP and to be able to drive that thought leadership.
(4:19 - 4:29)
So so if you can make it jump on the website, we'd love to see you and I'd love to help you with your thought leadership. In the meantime, we have our very special guest today. So let me introduce you.
(4:30 - 5:08)
Have you ever worked for a leader who seemed to just know what you needed? They seem to really, you know, they really believed in you. They had your back and they opened doors for you, perhaps based on what you were trying to achieve and where you're trying to go at the same time, still achieving organizational goals as well. Well, if you have, then they're probably the best years of your working life, because that kind of leader really brings out the best in you and everyone around them.
And the secret sauce that they have is they're called attuned leaders. So our guest today is an expert in something called attuned leadership. She's been in the business since 2000.
(5:08 - 5:26)
She wrote her PhD on it. She speaks at conferences, advises and runs training programs for organizations, and she works one on one coaching individuals to become more attuned. She's worked with some people from incredible organizations like Google, KPMG, BHP, Goldman Sachs, the ABC.
(5:26 - 5:51)
She's been featured very, really widely in the media. So Business Insider, Channel 9, Radio National, The Age and on news.com.au. Please welcome the runner up, Miss Mansfield 1975, Dr. Michelle Pizer. Hi there, Michelle.
Welcome. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. I'm thrilled to be here, Jane.
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(5:52 - 6:16)
Thank you, Michelle. You have had an incredible career and you're Dr. Michelle Pizer and so academic career as well. So can you share with us a little bit about your background and how you got into this sort of thought leadership advisory consulting space? Well, it wasn't by design, I'm sure.
(6:16 - 6:28)
No, I started out, I became interested in psychology in my first year at uni. I had to choose another subject and I didn't know what to choose. And I had psychology on the list.
(6:28 - 6:33)
OK, and I never heard the word before. So I looked up the dictionary. Really? Yeah, it's been embarrassing.
(6:34 - 6:40)
And like it was never offered at school. People didn't see psychologists back in those days. I'm a bit old and so older.
(6:40 - 6:48)
And so, yeah, I didn't know what it was. And I did it and I did really well in it. I got a I got a letter from the dean saying congratulations on doing so well.
(6:48 - 6:54)
The subject. Oh, I've never had that before. And so I was quietly thrilled.
(6:55 - 7:05)
And I have shared with you, I've got three gifted siblings and I'm not one of them. So for me to get some kind of academic recognition like that was a really big deal. And so I never forgot.
(7:05 - 7:21)
And I think that's actually influenced me enormously, because that's why I, you know, I became a psychologist. That wasn't by design either. I started out doing marketing and and then I went into HR as I was registering for a psychologist because I had to work in a related field.
(7:22 - 7:30)
And I actually never knew what I wanted to be when I grew up. So I did try marketing HR. Then I went into management consulting.
(7:30 - 7:36)
So that was my first stint in consulting. I went to EY. It was called Ernst & Young back then.
(7:36 - 7:46)
It was not that long post the merger between Arthur Young and Ernst & Winnie. So it was a really long time ago. And but so that was my first time at consulting.
(7:46 - 7:56)
And I loved the work. Like I found it so stimulating and interesting, even though I was relatively junior then. And then I went into market research and I discovered that I was really good at market research.
(7:56 - 8:01)
And it's just natural. I'm a researcher. I'm an academic style person.
(8:01 - 8:07)
So I was good at the numbers. And I was but we're using SPSS back then. Oh, yes, we were.
(8:08 - 8:14)
I was hopeless at that. Yeah, 100 percent for everything. And it's that's was my maths was my best subject, actually.
(8:14 - 8:18)
And that's was. Yeah. I think if I was born now, I'd become a STEM person.
(8:19 - 8:22)
But I didn't. Yeah. Much prefer the people side of things.
(8:23 - 8:46)
And because I did physics at school as well. I like science, like a nerdy girl. And yeah.
And so I am. So after like I just sort of tried all these different things and they were great for a little while, which a little while could have been a few years, but like two or three years and then I had enough of this. And what next? And then I just take a bit of a leap of faith.
(8:46 - 8:57)
And when I when I first opened up my practice, I actually left with no job to go to. I just knew that I needed to I needed to change. My father had passed away.
(8:57 - 9:07)
And when those big life changes happen, sometimes you sort of like a covid experience, you kind of question everything. And so I thought, I don't know what I'm doing. I think I'll just quit.
(9:07 - 9:24)
And I I started working with intellectually mildly intellectually disabled adults as a gig. And I started a master's in counseling psychology, which I did not finish. I converted to a master's by research because I said we had to work with people face to face one on one.
(9:24 - 9:36)
And I was a bit too scared, like ironically, because that's all I do now and love it. But I was I think listening to being scared is a really good thing for me. And it's a good sign that that could be good for me.
(9:37 - 10:00)
And it's like, well, it's too scary, but it's actually really good to stretch and learn and develop that way. And I just so I did all I did those things I did. I finished my master's.
I finished. And then later on, I got disillusioned again. Like, what am I going to do? So I went to because I couldn't see where I was going to go next in the organization I was in.
(10:00 - 10:05)
And I thought so. Then I started freelancing as a market researcher. That's what I started out doing.
(10:05 - 10:12)
And volunteering as a counselor in a community agency. I did that for four years. And then I thought so.
(10:12 - 10:20)
Then I started a Ph.D. and I was on a full scholarship. But I can assure you, as a mature age student, it's not very much money. Really not.
(10:20 - 10:30)
And so I thought, hmm. And a friend of mine, when I first registered years ago, he's a dentist and he had a practice in the city. And he said to me, why don't you start up your own practice? And I said, don't be ridiculous.
(10:30 - 10:42)
I can't see a person. And so but by that time, I was ready to see a person because I'd done those four years. And so as a volunteer and I asked him, is that room still available? He said, oh, no, not that one.
(10:42 - 10:53)
But another one is. And so I rented from him in the Manchester Unity Building, which is a beautiful building on the corner of Swanston Street and Collins Street in Melbourne. And they have this beautiful bay windows.
(10:53 - 10:57)
And I sat in one of those bay windows for five years with my clients. Wow. So lucky.
(10:58 - 11:03)
And also it was super cheap. He only he charged me hardly anything. And only when I was there.
(11:03 - 11:13)
And in terms of starting the practice, I didn't know what to do because I knew nobody. So I what I did was I sent a I looked up the white pages. I think we had the Internet then.
(11:13 - 11:22)
So it's like I just found some addresses of doctors. I wrote them. I found the ones in the city and I wrote them all a letter and said, hello, I'm here.
(11:22 - 11:33)
And it took three months before anyone responded with a referral. But that's so that's how I started my counseling practice. I know my business card because my master's was in business.
(11:33 - 11:47)
And my PhD that I was I was doing was on emotions and relationships in the workplace. So I thought so I put organizational consulting and executive coaching on it as well as God. And on my letterhead.
(11:47 - 11:53)
So every time it went out to someone, they saw that as well. So then I just got lucky. And someone said, I see you do executive coaching.
(11:53 - 12:01)
I go, oh, yes, I do. And thinking, never done it yet. But, you know, and and it was well within my skill set was what I discovered.
(12:02 - 12:09)
And was it was actually pretty easy. Well, easy is not the word, but it was was not a stretch for me at all. It's just the focus is different.
(12:09 - 12:16)
Right. And I loved all the navigating the workplace politics. And I mean, that was what my thesis, my PhD research was about.
(12:16 - 12:18)
Right. And so, yeah. So that's how I started.
(12:19 - 12:24)
And it just went from there. I was lucky. I feel like I work work.
(12:24 - 12:35)
Luck comes to those who have done the work to I was. Yeah, I guess, you know, doing PhDs is a lot of work. And even just the volunteering for four years like that was a lot of work.
(12:35 - 12:44)
Yeah. And all the work that you put in to get the skills Yeah. Like I had 10 years, I had weekly supervision with a psychoanalyst.
(12:44 - 12:47)
Right. People who see people on the couch. But I wasn't on the couch.
(12:47 - 12:58)
And I saw her every week and took my cases and said, this is what's going on. How do I make sense of it? And so I learned I think that's where I learned most, actually, was with her. Yes, I call her the great one.
(12:58 - 13:09)
And she was so wonderful, at least for me. And because she was very like other people didn't like her as much because she was a hard taskmaster. But I need that.
(13:09 - 13:18)
So as you're discovering, but she was great for me. And yeah, so kind as well. But yeah, very easy to be.
(13:18 - 13:21)
Yes, it was really great. And you've done the work. But I love the work.
(13:21 - 13:33)
And I still love the work. Like I haven't chopped and changed now for years, whereas I was for the first 15 to 20 years of my career was a lot of chopping and changing. And now I feel quite settled, settled in it.
(13:33 - 13:47)
Yeah. Which is great. So and you were talking about your executive coaching and and so the programs that you do tell us about the type of because your message is all about a concept called attuned leadership.
(13:47 - 13:51)
Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, let's tell us about what attuned leadership is.
(13:52 - 14:12)
Well, I guess it's not that commonly used word, but it seems like people know what it means. Attuned is just when you're really in you connected and really in touch with someone else. And when I was working with the great one and I was also doing my I love my yeah, my Ph.D. with my I'm not sure what I was doing.
(14:12 - 14:28)
I must not would have been doing my master's at the time with a there's a whole body of area of research which looks at psychodynamics of organizations. And so that's where my master's was and my Ph.D., really. And so that and so my supervisor there also had the same framework.
(14:29 - 15:00)
And I was learning about a psychoanalyst called Donald Winnicott, who talked about holding and he coined the phrase, which the good enough mother or the good enough parent. And so I was just when I was first working, like I was at Wayne Morgan Research, I was running their customized research area and I had these people and it was like, hmm, I haven't been in charge of an area before. How do I lead this team? And so I was holding this good enough mother kind of idea in mind.
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But also this whole he talks about the concept of a holding environment that a mother provides for their baby, which is to make them feel safe. It's I mean, the whole thing with psychological safety now is really about all that, too. So making them feel safe and secure and being responsive as they need.
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And so it's that responsiveness. So you have to listen first because what are going to be responding to. So you have to listen not just to the words, but to with a baby.
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There's no words. So you have to you know, moms can read their babies because they're so attuned. It's that kind of attunement is what I was thinking about when I was first leading these people.
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Right. And then I saw my job. It's also about helping them.
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So I saw my job as actually helping them develop in their career and not in terms of what the organization needed, but also in terms of what they wanted to for themselves. Because there's no you can't force someone to do anything. So I really needed to make sure that, well, where do you see yourself going? What do you want to do? And then do my best to have them meet the requirements of the job as well as build the skills they needed.
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So it was actually being and everyone needed something slightly different. That's because, you know, that's you know, I don't have children. But for people out there who are listening to have a different children, they'll know that each child has different needs to respond accordingly.
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So it's the same for leadership. Not that these are children, but it was just the I was learning about it at the time and I just found it works so well. And then, yeah.
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So once you found out where they want to go, then you help them close that gap. Right. And with, you know, some comments or training or on the job, whatever it is that they is going to make most sense.
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Yes. And then what I found being like that was was a bit intense at first with some of them as I was working out what they needed. And then and because sometimes they didn't know themselves.
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So I was working that out and then helping them build those skills took a bit of hands on time. But what but what then you could let go. And like it was a dream having them like seeing them do the exponential growth.
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It was like some people call it the hockey stick as well. It's like it was such a it was so rewarding. It was way better than I love doing research.
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But this was way better. Really? Yeah. Way, way better.
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I love the people side and the developing the people. And I found that in my jobs after that role as well. And I think that's what my work is about now is providing that kind of environment where like a Winnicott style environment where it's a safe place, a holding space, working out what they need and then helping them build those skills.
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So attuned leadership encompasses all those things. And I think because what I find. And like one of the people said, you taught me how to think.
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And I thought that was the most flattering thing I'd ever heard, like being able to how to go about thinking about the job, which is when they became so independent and good at it. Really? And yeah. And others have come back to me.
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Another one said, you were the best leader I've ever had. And they'd worked with quite a number since before and since me. And I think also I believed in them.
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Like I could see, you know, I really you've got something here. Let's let's see how we can make the most of it and get you more of what you want. So I think that's what I try and help other leaders do now, because in the camp when I was because when I started in my practice, I did have more counseling than coaching.
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And I was getting people very unhappy at work. My very first client was someone who'd been bullied at work and they're at risk of PTSD. It's quite a serious thing.
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And yeah, I know it's really awful. And by the time they got to me, they often had it because it takes a while for people to admit it. Yes.
And they can't believe how different they are. Brings can bring out a different. I didn't know this was you know, I was this was me as well.
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I don't like this part of me and very much and then having to contend with all that. But I am. Yeah, I thought, geez, I don't think their bosses realize what they're doing to these people, because they're usually most people I work with when I work with leaders, because I work with more senior leaders now and even the ones who are more senior.
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So the most senior ones tend to want to be better with the people like the CEO people. I'm finding they how can I get more out of my people? How can I be a better boss for them? And the people in the C-suite or aspiring C-suite people, I find they're more concerned about getting their own career up because they're not quite where they want to be. And they're still ambitious, which I love.
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I love ambition and that drive. Yeah, but but I think I don't think they realize the impact they're having. Right.
And so I part of it. So the beauty of this framework, I think, is that as they become more attuned with themselves and with the people around them so they can get where they want to go, it helps them be a better boss anyway. So I think it's like it's like a sneaky way in.
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So it's kind of like there's an element of nurturing Michelle, like a space and to help them develop. And then there's an element of mindfulness that I'm hearing as well. That is, you know, just consciousness and awareness of what's happening for your team, how you're showing up.
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Are you paying attention? Yeah, I've seen there's a lot to notice. Yeah. Right.
When they're so when they're so overwhelmed or, you know, something big going on for them and they're having they've been maybe they've been given feedback they don't like or whatever it might be. Yeah, I find they're so they can't think so well because they're still very emotional. So it takes a little while for us to unpack that for them.
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So they feel heard and validated first before they can actually start to think and work out how to improve. Right. Which I guide them through.
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I love it. Yeah. And that was I was going to ask you.
(20:52 - 21:16)
So how does it show up in your practice, how you deliver this work? Is it executive coaching? And you talk a little bit about restructures. So how what are the sort of modes that you deliver? Do you do some speaking as well or how does it work? It's mostly executive coaching one on one. I do do some consulting where things aren't going as well as people had hoped.
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So like those restructuring, like I've been brought in for a job where they've done a restructure. Like it's still I'm in this process of still doing that one right now. And I think there's some unintended consequences of the restructure.
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So it's like help us like deal with this so we don't so we get back to not back, but we get to where we thought we were going to be going. And so everyone's bringing their best or more of their best to work. And I do some speaking.
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That's a smaller part of my practice, but I still do do that. And I'm happy to do that because I think because it forces me to think about what I'm doing and there's something even talking with you forces me to think about what I'm doing. So I appreciate that because when you're one on one with someone, it's like it's much more responsive and which is something I do quite naturally.
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Yes. Yes. So that's why I like doing that as well.
(22:10 - 22:32)
And also some training as well, like it might be some workshops or training on these kinds of skills for people. Michelle, I think this is just such I love the intune leadership where I love the messaging. You know, I think it's I love how you've been able to, you know, have it tightened up, you know, so that it's nice and clean.
(22:32 - 23:06)
And like you said, people get it. Like they get it really quickly when you when you talk about it. So tell us some for those who are listening, because there'll be people listening who have either started their practice or in the process of a startup or that growth phase, you know, so they're sort of perhaps starting in a contracting that might be either contracting or cutting back their days in a full time job, you know, coming back from five to four to three or sometimes maybe doing the accelerator clutch thing with subcontracting and trying to get their practice up and then through the growth.
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What are some of the things that that have made a big difference for you in terms of being able to get your practice going and and growing, particularly because you've got this balance of counseling and exec coaching kind of got a unique mix there. What are some of the things that have helped you to really get going? I think I'm kind of shy. So it's actually just letting people know I exist.
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Like I did that very first. Yeah, I'm going to say the letter in the referrals is perfect. Yeah, that was that was a big first step.
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It was. It was. And I remember spending hours and probably days and days and days on that.
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Wow. That brochure is also there's too much to say. Like I was a bit like unsure.
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Like what can you say? What can't you say? Also being having the psychology like being registered psychologist also has some restrictions, so it can't be like a normal sales kind of thing. But still, you can say what you do and who you are and who you like to work with and your experience and things. And so that was all fine.
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But yeah, I think it's getting out there, trying different things, seeing what you like to do and doing it. And I think it's doing it. I think Nike is right.
Just do it. And also, I think being prepared to have the things not work. Like I know that I remember once I tried a webinar thing years ago, it was a telecall before webinars were a thing.
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And so it was a long time ago. And I remember no one showed up. I was really not no one.
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But no one showed up. No one signed up. And it was about I think was the topic was about having a bully boss.
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And I thought, oh, maybe no one wants to admit having a bully boss. And I don't know. But anyway, it wasn't the forum.
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I think it was a mismatch. But, you know, so I didn't die. I was fine.
And I actually had a student. I used to supervise students on placement for the master's in organizational psychology at Deakin. And I had a student with me.
(25:15 - 25:22)
And so we were all so happy with what we put together. And no one showed up. And so I tell you, it was really nice to not be alone in that one.
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Because sometimes it can be quite a lonely thing. And the first time I did a radio interview is that that experience like it's so like my adrenaline is going and then you're on the radio and then you hang up and then there's nothing. And it was bizarro to me.
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I've never had it before. And but this was nice to have someone by my side. So I guess don't like get people around you, even if you're a solo practitioner, I think having like what you have, Jane, about being part of your community is really I appreciate it.
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And I know from that early experience of having that student with me. Yeah, she was a great. She was a great placement person.
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I remember her. And yeah, it was it made all the difference because then it didn't feel so bad and we just thought, oh, silly them. And and just got on with whatever was next.
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Right. So the resilience in me, because you go, oh, well, you know, this isn't just me. It happens to other people.
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Yeah. Other things to do. If it keeps you, it keeps giving you momentum if you've got people around you, like you don't sort of get too lost in if something doesn't work out, you can pick yourself up a bit quicker and and don't sort of beat yourself up.
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Sometimes I don't know if that's not what I was beating myself up for. Oh, no, I didn't beat myself up about that one. No, because I knew I'd done a good job and I'd actually done the work a few times.
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I was going to tell them good stuff. And I thought that's so silly of them. Never mind is what I thought.
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And I think I must have been very busy at the time and had a lot of other things going on. Yeah. So that's also a help, too.
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So you've got something else to we're like a next thing to look forward to. I think that's a useful. Yeah.
Like having a holiday to look forward to that kind of it's like it's not the end of the world and it certainly is not. And yeah, there's a Japanese proverb. I don't know.
It's like you fall down seven times and get up eight or something. It's that kind of thing. Yeah, that's all that is, I think.
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And marketing is a series of experiments. And that's how I think about it. So it really is.
(27:25 - 27:38)
Yeah. You just got to take something to market, see if it works, see what people think. Because, you know, I was talking to someone the other day about we're just not the best judge of our own work.
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You know, sometimes something so good and we go, great, this is going to be great. And then, you know, we get a bit of a reality check. And other times we go, oh, I don't know, this is so basic.
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I'll just put it together. People seem to kind of like it. And then before you know it, it's, you know, it's run like wildfire.
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And you're like, oh, really? OK. I wrote a blog post on white anting. And and it's been by far my most popular post.
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And I've had clients from it. I could find amazing. And it was just a little thing because I'd never heard the term.
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And my client used it. And I thought, oh, what's that? That sounds like a great blog post topic. And it was.
(28:17 - 28:33)
Wow. And you still got people reading it. I know.
Yeah, I could. It's my most read thing every week. Well, like from Google Analytics, is it? Yeah.
Yeah. We need to optimize that a bit more. Have we put twenty twenty four on it? Oh, I don't know.
(28:34 - 28:41)
I'd have to put a twenty twenty four date in there. Yeah, I can republish it or something. Yeah, that's great.
(28:42 - 29:06)
And that's interesting. So picking up on words that are in the vernacular of what people are, you know, the whole zeitgeist. Yes.
It's, you know, tapping into that. That's really valuable, Michelle, and really interesting. So being able to get visibility on what the words people are using, I think what's the word of the year is Riz, I think this year, isn't it? I don't even know what Riz is, but I think you're right.
(29:08 - 29:14)
Apparently, it's the slang for charisma. OK, Riz, Rizma, that's right. Yes.
(29:15 - 29:17)
Yes. So whatever. I'm not into it.
(29:18 - 29:26)
Yeah, I saw someone who's created a keynote. I was in Perth last week and someone's created this keynote around Riz. And I'm like, oh, OK, there you go.
(29:26 - 29:39)
I think it was word of the, I don't know if it's been voted word of the year this year or was last year, maybe. But anyway, it's apparently word of the year. So it's funny.
(29:39 - 29:49)
I might get used to it. I might be a what do they call a slow adopter? And yeah, I might be not an early adopter. But yeah, it just doesn't resonate for me.
(29:49 - 31:02)
But that doesn't mean it hasn't for millions, obviously. Otherwise, it wouldn't be the word. But why chanting, you know, these are all, you know, problems that, you know, that you're seeing in the workplace and the words people picking up on.
I love that you mentioned that because, you know, it's easy for us to, we've always got to be paying attention. What are what are they, you know, what's like, what are the words that are being used? What's the latest article in HPR? What are the what's the language or the research that's coming out there? We've got to just so stay on staying your expertise, but context is everything. So is what where is this? Where does my expertise show up in terms of the problems and people, the challenges that people have at work? Yeah, and yes, I think it's so funny, because I do go, what I found over the years in my practice is that they will have things at the moment, it's restructuring with unintended consequences.
(31:02 - 37:43)
And because that's, I've had that happen now three times just in the last month. I know, amazing. And, and it's like, and then I've got the I'm working with the unhappy people, not the happy people, or not the people who are dealing with the unintended consequence.
So they've got less power, usually, like they're still very senior all these people, but they're just, you know, one down. So it's quite interesting that that's happened in my current practice. And like, I've gone through having all mostly lawyers to having mostly medical health, you know, industry.
So industries have changed over time, too. And there's no, I don't know why. But it keeps me interested.
It's the joy. Yeah, the joy of change. Yeah, the variety.
-
Yeah. So Michelle, what if someone was sitting here listening to you, and they're thinking about, or they're trying to get their practice going? Or they are in that sort of early growth phase? What tips or would you have any advice for them that might for them to perhaps think about with if they're in that stage of their growth? Yeah, I think patience, like it is. And also, be prepared for ups and downs as well.
Like you'll have, you know, record months, and you think, Oh, this is how it's going to be now. How cool. And then all of a sudden, the next month is not.
And it's like, Oh, so I guess putting aside money for the tax man, and for the rainy day is something that is also which I did have. And that also made me feel very, it made it easy from easier for me to take the risks that because it is like it does feel like a risk and you're not you can't know early on. So I think just those things and knowing that it takes time, but if you're loving the work, like we only live once, so you should enjoy it, is what I think.
So if that's what you want to do, I think you should do it. Yeah. Right.
And Michelle, if you had your time again, is there anything that you do differently? I think I would have asked for help sooner. I think I'm a very into like, I was so used to doing everything on my own that I didn't think to. And then I had trouble finding the right help.
And I do love you. So you're not yet the great one. We love you too, Michelle.
We love having you. It's so nice. Because I've tried American coaches, I've tried people working in Australia, but not with corporates.
And so finding the right coach for you and the right group of people for you is really, it just makes a huge difference. And so it's really helpful. And also is that is also I guess, like because of the uncertainty of should I say this? Should I say this? Can I say that? And I'll just run it past you.
And you'll go, yeah, that's fine. Like, oh, I just won't worry my head about it. But otherwise, I agonize over it for too long.
So being more I think another tip is to be decisive and try things rather than agonize because until it's, it's sort of like we were saying before with the like that blog post, I had no idea, I just thought it would be fun to write. And out it went. And it's still like this would be about eight years later, still reaping the benefits.
I've got a client, just the beginning of this year from it. Like that, right? Yeah, amazing. And so you just you just don't know.
So also the long haul, like it's also a long game. So yeah, playing a long game as well. So patience.
(36:41 - 36:45)
Yeah. Well, for me, I was it was a long game for me. And it still is a long game for me.
(36:45 - 37:29)
I'm older. It's like I don't have, you know, 20, do I have 20 years in me? Depends my health. And be nice to actually.
Yeah. So like, it's a long game. And yeah, so I think it's very rewarding work, at least for me.
Yeah, I think that's something that, you know, that I've always had in mind and that I've learned from my mentors is, you know, it's the it's your labour of love. And it's a it's at least a 10 year game, 10 year game to build the practice, to get to a point of choice. And if you go, well, I want to retire, I want to do part time.
I'm having to speak every now and again. What do you want to do? So, you know, this is it's it's your life's work. You know, it's what you've been put here to do.
So and we're so grateful that you're doing this work, Michelle, you know, all the years and building your brand out is there's all that childhood and growing up and all those experiences that create the essence and the uniqueness that you are. And now today, being able to which all creates empathy and being able to see, you know, things that people are going through that they don't even see themselves. And I know, you know, the work that you do, I've read the testimonials, the things that you do with your clients, you know, you've got a really valuable thing that they need help with.
And organizations to that skill that you have, not just all executive coaching, but what the impacts are, all restructures and all those sorts of things. You can go to that level to talk through with a client if needed. So so I'm taking some some great things away today, Michelle.
I love that you said early on, you said some things that there were some situations where you saw were to learn and you said, I was scared to death. So I figured that's what I've got to do. I love that.
I'm going to really take that away today. And particularly your expertise, you're currently you're writing around attuned leadership. And so we look forward to reading more about that.
So if people want to follow you, Michelle, and follow your air of expertise around this attuned leadership and this messaging around it, where would you like them to go? Where are best to follow you on LinkedIn is a good place. Just Michelle Pizer, I think is what I'm under there. So happy to connect.
So just send me a link and or whatever it is, a connection request and also on my website. And I'm I'm starting up my newsletter soon. I'll be writing all about attuned leadership.
I've already got a whole lot of blogs on my website, but also the newsletter. So you can sign up on my website to the newsletter from there. All right.
(37:29 - 37:43)
Terrific. Well, thank you, Michelle. Thanks for being part of the show today.
We can't wait to see what you do with attuned leadership and all the work that's come the body of work that's still to come. Oh, thank you so much, Jane. I really appreciate it.
My pleasure.
Most of the guests interviewed are current or alumni members of the Women With Influence community. Click here to find out more
