Episode 69- Global Expert on Mindsets & Women's Leadership, Author Cathy Burke

27 Jun

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In this episode of The Jane Anderson Show, my special guest is Cathy Burke. She helps organisations and people develop the mindsets, leadership, and skills needed to address 21st century challenges.

She understands leadership. For 20 years, Cathy was the CEO of The Hunger Project Australia, and then Global Vice President, working to end hunger across South Asia and Africa.

Cathy was an integral member of a visionary team who developed leadership at scale in villages all over the world. Through her work, millions of the world’s poorest people stepped into their leadership and were able to feed themselves and their families.

Cathy now works with organisations and leaders to develop the mindsets, authenticity, and capabilities needed to achieve a better future. She believes the potential for leadership is available to everyone, and that it’s never been more important to activate this in organisations and communities worldwide.

Cathy designs and leads transformational programs—for village women redefining what it means to be a leader and for global executives grappling with change.

Cathy received the Australian Davos leadership award and is aAFR Top 100 Women of Influence award winner. She is the author of Unlikely Leaders: Lessons in Leadership from the Village Classroom. Her new book, Lead In: Mindsets to Lead, Live, and Work Differently, will be out in January 2022.

Cathy shares how she brings her ideas to life.

Take the time to listen to Cathy today.

You can find Cathy on LinkedIn or https://www.cathyburke.com/

Key Takeaways from Today’s Episode:

Jane Anderson welcomes listeners to "The Jane Anderson Brand New Show," aimed at experts striving for greater impact, influence, and income in their businesses and careers. She emphasizes the importance of building relationships based on trust, highlighting that people buy from those they know, like, and trust. Jane provides updates on the current business landscape, noting variations in growth and challenges faced by different industries. She invites listeners to share their experiences and announces upcoming events, including a masterclass and resources available on her website.
Jane introduces Kathy Burke as a special guest, highlighting her extensive experience in leadership development and her transformative work with the Hunger Project. Kathy's background as CEO of the Hunger Project in Australia and her global leadership role in addressing hunger across Southeast Asia and Africa are emphasized. Kathy's commitment to developing leadership skills and mindsets to tackle 21st-century challenges is praised, along with her significant contributions to empowering communities worldwide.
Kathy shares her journey of transitioning from her role at the Hunger Project to starting her own practice. She reflects on her leadership experiences and the lessons learned from working with marginalized communities globally. Kathy emphasizes the importance of expressing her message beyond the scope of the Hunger Project and reaching a broader audience interested in personal and organizational transformation.
Jane acknowledges Kathy's remarkable leap from her previous role to working with large-scale organizations in her own practice. She highlights the significance of Kathy's cultivated relationships and reputation in securing partnerships with major clients. Jane and Kathy discuss how Kathy's network and reputation have facilitated opportunities to work with prominent organizations, demonstrating the importance of relationship-building in career transitions and professional success.
Kathy Burke shares her insights on transitioning from her previous role to starting her own practice, highlighting the challenges of moving from a well-established context to a new venture. She discusses the importance of not turning her back on her legacy while also recognizing the need to adapt and refine her message to address the specific needs of her new audience. Kathy emphasizes the value of understanding the problem she solves for her clients and the necessity of developing a clear message and focus for her practice.

Jane acknowledges Kathy's significant presence on global stages, including events like MDRT, and praises her journey in establishing herself in the global market. They discuss the impact of COVID-19 on global perceptions and responses, highlighting the diverse approaches taken by different countries and organizations. Kathy emphasizes the importance of understanding and respecting the varied tolerances and responses to the pandemic, advocating for individual decision-making and organizational adaptability based on contextual factors.
Jane inquires about Kathy's programs for women in leadership, mentoring, and corporate culture change. Kathy shares her passion for mentoring women and outlines her various programs aimed at empowering women to lead authentically and effectively. She emphasizes her belief in the power and potential of women, challenging societal narratives of inadequacy and advocating for a mindset of sufficiency rather than scarcity. Kathy discusses the detrimental effects of a scarcity mindset and encourages women to embrace an abundance mindset rooted in self-worth and resourcefulness.

Jane and Kathy delve into the importance of cultivating a sense of enoughness and leveraging personal strengths and resources to navigate challenges and pursue growth. Kathy draws inspiration from mentors like Lynn Twist and her book "The Soul of Money," emphasizing the transformative potential of shifting from a scarcity mindset to a mindset of sufficiency and abundance. She encourages women to recognize their inherent value and capabilities, empowering them to take strategic action and build successful consulting practices based on authenticity and confidence.
Kathy Burke shares a transformative experience from her work in Bangladesh, where she observed a significant shift in women's perceptions of themselves as leaders. Through interventions focused on mindset and leadership development, Kathy witnessed a remarkable increase in women identifying as leaders and taking impactful actions within their communities. She emphasizes the importance of investing in women's leadership potential and challenges the notion that leadership is an inherent trait possessed by few, advocating instead for a belief in the leadership capacity of all individuals, regardless of their background or circumstances.
Jane Anderson and Kathy Burke discuss the barriers women face in embracing leadership roles, particularly within their own consulting practices. They explore the concept of limiting mindsets, including imposter syndrome and fear of failure, which often hinder women from fully stepping into their leadership potential. Kathy shares insights from research conducted by the Center for Talent Innovation, highlighting the tendency for women to underestimate the benefits of leadership and overestimate the burdens associated with it. She emphasizes the importance of crafting a compelling vision for one's practice based on personal values and aspirations, rather than conforming to external expectations or comparisons with others.

Jane acknowledges the uniqueness of each individual's energy and essence in shaping their practice and emphasizes the importance of creating authentic experiences for clients. She highlights the value of recognizing and leveraging one's distinctive qualities to differentiate oneself in the consulting space. Kathy echoes this sentiment, stressing the significance of embracing one's authenticity and envisioning a practice that aligns with personal values and aspirations. Both speakers emphasize the importance of empowering women to define success on their own terms and to lead with confidence and authenticity in their consulting endeavors.
Jane Anderson and Kathy Burke delve into the concept of leading communities within consulting practices, emphasizing the importance of identifying and nurturing a supportive network of clients and followers. They discuss the shift from viewing oneself solely as a technical expert to embracing the role of a leader within a community. Kathy highlights the significance of creating a sustainable practice by building a loyal customer base and fostering long-term relationships with clients. Jane acknowledges Kathy's visionary approach and encourages individuals to seek support from experts who can help them actualize their ambitious goals. Both speakers stress the importance of collaboration and the willingness to ask for assistance in achieving one's aspirations, emphasizing the power of collective efforts in driving success.
In response to a question about what she would do differently in her practice if given the chance, Kathy Burke reflects on her journey as a consultant, acknowledging the learning curve and the value of seeking practical guidance earlier on. She expresses appreciation for Jane's pragmatic approach and emphasizes the importance of working with individuals who can provide hands-on support and expertise. Jane reciprocates Kathy's sentiment, praising her visionary mindset and highlighting the limitless possibilities she envisions for her practice and impact. Kathy shares her website as a resource for those interested in learning more about her work and invites individuals to engage with her weekly newsletter and explore her book.

The conversation concludes with gratitude and anticipation for future collaborations, underscoring the importance of community, support, and continuous growth in the consulting industry.

Full Show Transcript:

Hi there, my name is Jane Anderson and this is the Jane Anderson Brand New Show. It's the podcast for experts who want to have greater impact, influence and income for their businesses and careers. As experts, we know that people buy from people and work with people who they know, who they like and who they trust.

So I'm so glad you're here because it's that time again now to really amplify how you show up in the world. Hi there and welcome to today's podcast. I am absolutely thrilled that you are here and part of the Jane Anderson Brand New Show.

Today, we're going to be talking to a very special guest. But before we get into that, I wanted to say hi, check in, see how you're doing, see how you're going with your practice. Are you growing?

How are you finding things? You know, I'm out talking to people and we've had some clients who have had their best months and best quarter ever. Other industries and some they're working with it going, they're taking a long time to kind of make decisions.

And so and then there's sort of all that in between. We've had some who have had some of their record months, actually. And so I guess what I'm saying is that there is a real mix, depending on the type of industries people are working with, depending on the levels, if they're working with senior executive teams, we're seeing quite a bit of things like I've got one person that's doing a bit of crisis management, one person doing a lot of reputation, branding management.

And so those sorts of programs working with women, those sorts of programs are doing well. Speaking is just starting to come back. So I've had a few keynotes booked and quite a few in our community have as well.

So, yeah, love to hear from you, love to hear how you're going in your practice. What are your findings working? And we've got a few things coming up over the next few months.

We have a big deals masterclass coming up soon, which will be in July. So make sure you jump on if you haven't already booked in a time booked in for that. So you can jump on the website.

If you go to Jane-Anderson.com.au, you will see the link to our events area and you'll see the upcoming workshop there. What else? Oh, and the other thing, too, is don't forget to jump.

If you jump on the website, you'll see the top 10 questions that every corporate buyer has when they're looking to buy from you. Make sure you jump on, download it. It's got some fantastic tips and techniques and tools that you really need to think about that customers or your clients will typically be maybe thinking, but not saying.

So without further ado, let me introduce to you our very special guest today. Kathy Burke is our special guest today. She helps organizations and people develop the mindsets, leadership skills to address 21st century challenges.

She understands leadership. For 20 years, Kathy was the CEO of the Hunger Project in Australia and then a global vice president working to end hunger across Southeast Asia and Africa. She is extraordinary and she's a massive global citizen.

I'm in awe of this woman. Kathy was an integral member of a visionary team who developed leadership at scale in villages all over the world. Through her work, millions of the world's poorest people stepped into their leadership and they were able to feed themselves and their families.

Kathy now works with organizations and leaders to develop the mindsets, authenticity and capabilities needed to achieve a better future. She believes the potential for leadership is available to everyone and that it's never been more important to activate this in organizations and communities around the world. Kathy designs and leads transformation programs for village women, redefining what it means to be a leader, to global executives grappling with change.

Kathy received the Australian Davos Leadership Award, which if you're not aware, that's a really super prestigious award to win. She's also on the Australian Financial Review Top 100 Women of Influence, which is a prestige list as well. She's the author of two books, Unlikely Leaders Lessons in Leadership from the Village Classroom and her new book, I've got both here actually, here's her Unlikely Leaders book, which I have from a long time ago when she wrote that one, not a long time ago, only a few years ago.

But this is a new one. You can see all the spots I've highlighted here called Lead In, which is around mindsets to lead, live and work differently. So I hope you enjoy the interview with Kathy today.

I'd love to hear your insights, love to hear your thoughts. What were the best things that you got out of listening to Kathy today? Here we go.
Thanks so much for joining us, Kathy. I'm so excited that you are here. I have been counting the sleeps to catch up with you because you are so insightful in this space.

It's such a thrill to have you. Thanks for coming along.

[Speaker 1] (5:05 - 5:08)
I don't know that many people have counted the sleeps, Jane.

[Speaker 2] (5:09 - 6:36)
I count the sleeps when it comes to great people that we work with. So I'm thrilled because you have done some of the most extraordinary work. I was just thinking about this morning, when was the first time I ever saw Kathy and met Kathy?

And now you wouldn't maybe remember this, but I remember way, way, way back. I think I may have even been, I remember attending a Business Chicks event back in it would have been in the, I don't know when you started the relationship with them, but it must have been, I was still in a job back then. And so it must have been 12, 13 years ago, maybe something like that.

Would that be right? And I remember seeing you speak and I was like, far out, like I didn't even know that The Hunger Project existed. I didn't know anything about it.

I was like, this is just mind blowing what you got up and spoke about that day. And it was just the power of awareness and getting in front of the right audience. I think you're just such a great example of the work that women with influence do.

But I will never forget the day that I first, you wouldn't remember it, but it was so long ago. But I do remember seeing you present and just thought this is just extraordinary. So tell us a bit about, are you happy to share a bit about your practice, where you kind of started and how you sort of evolved into this space?

[Speaker 1] (6:37 - 7:30)
Oh, I'm trying to think of when, yeah, I started being still a huge fan of business chiefs, but I guess coming into the sort of audience that are listening to this, Jane, sort of speaking publicly wasn't natural to me. It was a real, I still get nervous before I speak publicly, but I put it off for a long time. And if I was earlier in my career now, and I definitely say this to a lot of women that I coach and mentor and whatnot is to is to look for those opportunities.

And for me, I, I always tried to make myself more on the like, not behind the scenes, but it was about the women, mainly in the women and men in villages around the world that we were serving.

[Speaker 2] (7:30 - 7:31)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (7:31 - 8:19)
So having me be, it was a real mindset shift to move towards me having to raising my profile, and it was really, really uncomfortable for a long time. Wow, you made it look so easy. Yeah, but it was, but it was absolutely the best thing to have done.

So, so anyone just even listening, thinking, oh, you know, feeling that uncomfortableness, and obviously, we get better at it as we go along. So whether you're a consultant in your own practice, or you're, you know, running a team or whatever, and we think it's because you want to build your influence. Finding those opportunities to speak isn't just about me, me, me, but it's actually progressing the thing that you're most committed to.

And I didn't realize that distinction kind of earlier on.

[Speaker 2] (8:19 - 8:53)
So Wow. And so then, so you were speaking on a lot of stages, because you have a great partnership with business tricks, and you're still very close to Emma and the team. So that sort of 20 years you spent with the Hunger Project, that's an incredible impact that you've had.

What made you decide to start your own practice and move away from I mean, there's so many lessons learned, you've written two fantastic books as a particularly your Unlikely Leaders book and the stories around that. What made you decide to start your own practice?

[Speaker 1] (8:56 - 12:03)
Um, it was a it was a big decision, as, as you can probably appreciate. I still love the Hunger Project. I love the work that it does.

I'm still a global ambassador. I'm still still sort of, yeah, involved. But I what had happened, Jane, is that probably in the in the 10 years before I left, I had maybe a bit longer, I had started to really reflect on what I had learned as a leader.

And as a human being from women who were not educated, who had been married young, who had all the reasons why they wouldn't be able to make any impact and change their life, their circumstances was so difficult. And I could just, and yet they taught me so much about what it meant to be courageous and to step up and how we're not defined by our circumstances. And how even when things are absolutely terrible, and there doesn't seem to be any way out.

That sort of, you know, kind of lighting that candle within is. And so then I looked at ways to monetize that in the Hunger Project. So to create because I do felt we had a big leadership message to give.

And also, the thing was moving from it wouldn't just go to a big corporate and say, Hey, we're really awesome. Give us lots of money. Like, what problem of yours?

Can I help you solve? And so we designed these really amazing transformational leadership programs, that I led countless numbers for ANZ Bank, for ComBank, Sovereign Insurance, business cheats in the field. And I just loved it so much.

And just the breakthroughs that people were having in their lives, not just at work, but in just being just better humans. It was just, it really called to me. And so then I wrote Unlikely Leaders when I was at the Hunger Project.

But I just, this was just the calling of my heart, Jane, to express this message more in what, without it being, okay, so now how can you be involved in the Hunger Project, I just felt like you could be involved in and people all over the world involved in prison reform in Chicago, involved in slums in Nairobi, involved in stuff happening in Beijing have all read my book. And they're using it to, to help their organisations and change their life. And it wasn't nothing to do with the Hunger Project, right?

So I just, I don't know, I just, I just, I also think that in careers, we get to these points, and they happen around the six to seven year mark, where we, we, and you often see people really needing to reinvent and reconstitute their relationship to their work. And that happened to me at those marks, and I was heading up to 20 years. And I just think, yeah, this was now time for me to, to leave and to do this.

[Speaker 2] (12:04 - 13:23)
And what an incredible leap you have made, like, Kathy, the clients that I mean, we only have to look at your client list, which I actually didn't mention in the intro today. But some of the brands, you know, we're not talking, you know, smaller businesses, and not that anything's wrong with smaller businesses, but the businesses and organisations that you're working on a massive, large scale. And then, and you've had, I guess, I'm thinking, you know, because there's a lot on your client list, if we look at those big names, I don't know if you're happy to share any of them, but I'll let you share any of them if you want to.

But, you know, that's any people kind of go, how do you suddenly step out of a role like that, and start, you know, playing on this big global stage, where a lot of them sort of clients that you had, or you had some of those relationships. And because they're often sometimes I find people, when they start their practices, they kind of go, I'm starting afresh, I'm forgetting that life. And I'm starting this life.

And we forget, you know, I think you're what I see is that watching you is that you have cultivated relationships over so many years, has that been a big part of being able to get some of these organisations and being able to work with them?

[Speaker 1] (13:23 - 15:26)
Yeah, definitely. I did have, and still do have fantastic relationships and have convolted. Whatever I'm trying to say.

Look, I have a friend, I do have a really good reputation, and that you need to in to succeed really in any endeavour, like in the long term. So I mean, I did work for eBay when I was at the Hunger Project and ran a leadership programme for them. And it was just like one person left eBay and then moved to Amazon.

And then he introduced I did a whole series of work there. And then one of them introduced me to Amazon Japan. So it's a bit like sort of spot fires.

It sort of, yes, goes like that. But also, yeah, like I've, I've, it's, I guess one of my biggest lessons, Jane, when I left to set up my practice was I had a real naivete and a real, just not magical thinking, but just not totally naive about, because I had such good relationships, I had a good reputation, but it was in a particular context. Right.

And so having I remember when I first said, Oh, I'm doing this. Isn't it great? Thoughts, you know, magical things would happen, people do that.

And it was like, really thrilled for me. But it's like, I hadn't fully thought through what problem am I solving for them? Yeah, I'm really wonderful in this in this arena.

But what about here? And I need to like, work on my message. Which I obviously I did.

But it was, it's not just you can move from one to the other. And, and in fact, there's a there's a chasm. So I was careful not to turn my back on my legacy.

[Speaker 2] (15:27 - 15:27)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (15:28 - 15:44)
But also, that's not what that's not what people, you know, people think, oh, that that was interesting, or whatever. But yeah, so, so, you know, I was able to take not turn my back on it, but not have it be that either.

[Speaker 2] (15:45 - 15:45)
Right?

[Speaker 1] (15:45 - 15:46)
Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (15:47 - 16:10)
And Kathy, so you're speaking on that, like some of these globe, like the global stages, you saw Kathy and I both spoke at MDRT. You can share anything Jane, I'm a total open book. The center stage, Kathy's on at MDRT, global MDRT in Sydney just before COVID hit.

And, you know, that was Miami as well.

[Speaker 1] (16:11 - 16:12)
And he did Miami. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (16:13 - 17:08)
It was phenomenal to see you on that stage. Kathy, it was just, you know, we're talking this is these are some of the biggest stages in the most renowned stages to be on. So, so incredible to watch your journey.

With the in the global market, like particularly, because that was a really interesting time, okay, that happened that we came because we pretty much came in COVID, not long after that, that was sort of end of the year, and then came into because that was August, September, I think that time COVID came about six months later. What have you noticed, you're a global citizen, you know, you see the people that you're working with are across the world, what do you think that you're seeing or noticing that the impact or perhaps opportunities or things that you're noticing at a global scale that are impacting or perhaps are opportunities for women who have their own consulting practices?

[Speaker 1] (17:09 - 19:41)
Yeah, it's more just a it's so different, I guess, is what I can say. And I hadn't fully and we need to be aware of that. So I have a client in in the US, a few clients, but he was telling me he's part of a CEO of a large global CEO of a large global bank.

And so in his where he lives, there's some sort of COVID awareness, but not a lot. And then he said he went to London just recently, and he said, it's like it's 2018. There.

It's like, it's just, you know, like, it's all thing. And so for him, real, real shock, and clients in Australia, some are just as if, as if it, you know, it didn't really happen either. But then but then you have a lot of fear there.

But then, like, one of my clients in Japan, when she when they're at work, they all have to wear a mask. And there's a mask monitor who walks around the corridors and get a thing if you're not wearing it. So So I think what it taught me Jane was that it's not about my own kind of risk or even judging what other people are doing.

I don't think anyone's doing it right or wrong. It's just, it's just the way it's just being aware of the different tolerances in different countries. And it made me feel a little bit better, actually, because people had been like Australia, Fortress Australia, you know, all this sort of stuff.

Yes. But then I, you know, listen to Japanese clients who, you know, have had mask monitors, for instance, and there's nothing wrong with that for them. So I just think it's just a reminder to be able to work in the context where you're at.

And, and also, what's your sort of risk area. And I've got a large keynote that I'm sort of I have to decide whether I'm flying over to in North Carolina, and like, I'd love to go and then it's like, I haven't still haven't had COVID or anything. And it's like, I'm risking it.

But then it's like, so I just think everyone just has to make their own decisions. And organisations are trying to do that as well. And just that it's, it's a very different beast everywhere you go in the world.

And, and to me, that just had me feel more comfortable about owning my level of comfort and not feeling so bad or, or defensive about it, really.

[Speaker 2] (19:42 - 20:41)
I really, and that's really a big part of who you are, Kathy, and that I think I've learned from you is that I think we can, sometimes I don't know if you notice this, but sometimes in our space, we can, we've got to adapt, we've got to evolve and all those types of things. But what I love what you often say is you always come back to what is right for you and coming back to what I think that's that centeredness and coming back to what do you need. And I know that's a big part of some of the programs that, that you have and that you deliver because you work with, whilst you work with, I'm thinking CEOs and at senior level, whether they're male or female, but most of your space is really in the female space.

What are some of the programs that you work with? Like is it, do you do mentoring? Do you do coaching?

Do you do training? You've got speaking, obviously, and what are the programs that you do? Well, Jane, here's one I prepared earlier.

[Speaker 1] (20:42 - 21:45)
I also like everyone listening, most people listening, running amazing program. I look I love I love working with women. I just do.

I yeah, I have a lot of experience in that area, not just because I am one. So I do a lot of mentoring for women. I run two programs.

One's a year long program with me sort of one on one. And I also have a program, program where women and men, actually, this is for come up to Byron, which is I live in the hinterland around Byron Bay, for sort of mentoring half days, once a quarter. Yes.

And I run a program, like a public program for women to explore leadership and bust some of the myths and how to achieve more with less stress and less second guessing and just feeling bad about stuff.

[Speaker 2] (21:46 - 21:46)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (21:46 - 22:36)
And then I run corporate leadership programs for women to change the culture. I don't believe that women need to be fixed to lead. So I wrote a white paper on that.

That's one of my bug bits. I know. And just more this or that.

And we then believe it ourselves. We've been so ghastly. Women have been ghastly for just, you know, how how how the patriarchy came about Jane Anderson?

I do not know. It's like we've all swallowed the Kool-Aid, but women do not need to be fixed. We are amazing.

We've been told all this stuff. It's just not true. And we are powerful beyond measure.

And yes, I totally believe that. And I get that. And I propel women to step forward and just knock their socks off, basically.

[Speaker 2] (22:37 - 25:00)
Yeah, I love that. Because you're right. How often and I even myself, I think back in corporate days, that was what we always you know, we have that, you know, I guess that repeated message that's often said to us is that you just need to step up, you just need to do this, you know, but it is a cultural, you know, yeah, like this.

Sure, fair enough. But, you know, it's being able to change the cultures of organisations and the message and the whole mindset and in corporate Australia, really isn't a global corporate. Yeah.

How do we create environments that cultivate women moving into those roles like we've just seen? I can't I've just forgotten her name off the top of my head, who's taken on a new CEO role at Telstra. Is it what's her name?

I'm trying to remember. She's coming in in September. I'll tell you.

Her name is Vicky Brady, who's coming in in that role. So which is really exciting to see starting to see some more women come into those roles. Your work is so important in this space.

Kathy, in terms of like in terms of leading, you've written, for those who haven't already got it, you've got to check out Kathy's book. So a few things that really stood out to me in your book, because it's easy to kind of go, oh, Kathy's books for women in corporate environments, but particularly for female consultants. I think there's a few really valuable gems in here that you share.

One of them, if I can ask you a bit about there was a key message that you had in particularly around abundance mindset. And, you know, there's, I don't know if you find this, but I find that for sometimes for those who are building their own practices, particularly women selling to large organizations, you know, we often get told to kind of, you got to, there's opportunities everywhere. You got to have an abundance mindset and there can be that pressure to keep doing more and more.

What's your opinion on that? How do you work with the mind? If you were working with women who have their own consulting practices and they just are feeling, you know, working through that scarcity versus abundance mindset, what advice would you have for them who are struggling a little bit with that?

[Speaker 1] (25:03 - 28:41)
Well, yeah, I've written a whole chapter in Lead In about the scarcity mindset, because in many ways it is the mindset that rules us all, like in Lord of the Ring. And by scarcity isn't just about scarcity around money. It's a scarcity that is ingrained into our culture that we don't have enough.

There's something essential that we need that we don't have. And for, it can look in many different ways. It can be certainly a scarcity of money, but a scarcity of time, scarcity of contact, scarcity of sleep, scarcity of exercise time, scarcity of love.

One of the, you know, so many women friends and stuff, it's like, oh, the good ones are taken. I'll never find anyone. And then we look out and how mindsets work is that we have evidence for it.

It feels true. It is true that I don't have enough clients that I, my bank accounts going down all of this stuff. So then it feeds this sort of scarcity mindset.

I take my cues from Lynn Twist, who wrote The Soul of Money, and is one of my most amazing, amazing mentors. And she talks about the difference between the scarcity mindset and the opposite is an abundance. It's actually the antidote is what she calls mindset of enough.

And it is, it helps the narrative that somehow I don't like I'm lacking something important. It's like fundamentally, I'm enough. So given that, what actions do I now need to take that comes out of this sense of I'm enough rather than this grasping hungry ghost, no matter how much I have, I'll never have enough.

Because back to like female consultant, because what this scarcity think and then have us grasping for more, less and we're taking more action, but it's not actually necessarily the action that's going to like what's fueling that action isn't necessarily strategy isn't necessarily playing a medium to longer term game, isn't necessarily building off your strength and actually seeing what you do have. Our biggest resource isn't in our bank account isn't even in the number of our clients, it's in, it's in like my ingenuity, my my reputation, my stuff I've done the quality of my IP, the way I can, I can expand myself the way I can collaborate with others, the way I can get coaching that I need.

Yes, that becomes the alchemy that then can grow our practice when we're going through sort of difficult time. And I use that myself, like, like, sometimes my practice is like flowing, like, flowing like rain. It's not as just like, I'm going to really don't do this.

Or I do nothing because it's all just so just like, what's the point? But then it's like, oh, right, that that's, that's the scarcity, this feeling of lack that's coming through. And actually, I always have control, may not have control over my external realities, like clients will pull will delay or will do this stuff happen.

But I always have control over how I show up, what I do, how what I deem important, what actions I take, and and centering myself in a way so they're not giving off that with the glossiness, you know, some will some won't, that's fine kind of thing.

[Speaker 2] (28:41 - 30:53)
Yes, I love that. And it kind of allows you to just be lighter, doesn't it? And less attached.

And I love what you say around that, it just that real sense of centeredness in that you, you know, knowing that you are enough and that you've done the work, you know, for a lot of women who go into this space, they're more often than not have about 20 years experience in in their chosen field. And that's what sort of triggered them to starting their own space. But it's just in a different context.

And we can kind of go into, I don't know, I haven't got enough clients, I haven't got enough leads, I haven't got. And I've got to get more of those. But I love what you say about, you know, just really taking the time to acknowledge that I've, I've done enough, in terms of I am enough, I've got enough expertise, I've got enough knowledge.

I've just, it's now just about, okay, well, does someone need help with that? And if not, that's okay. We'll just see if they do.

And if they don't, that's cool, too. So just, I love that. Kathy, in your practice, you taught, there's something really valuable that you talk about in, in the book, you know, I obsess around metrics.

And it's easy to get and coming off the back of enough with metrics. But I think what sometimes happens is we forget to look back and look at, well, what are the results that we've actually achieved? And there's something that you talk about in the book, it's on page 101.

And you talk, you did some great work here, which was when you're at the Hunger Project, and you did some training evaluation results. And when you look at it, what you measured at the beginning was you had 638 women who scored themselves at the beginning, and then at the end, and to sort of, so that you have the metric to kind of describe this transformation. Are you happy to share a little bit about the story behind that, how you did it, and what that meant for being able to create influence, when it came to showing other organizations, like I was on, you're trying to get more people to come along to leadership programs and show the transformation that they're going through.

Are you happy to share what the difference that these metrics made and how you went about it?

[Speaker 1] (30:53 - 35:07)
Yeah, so this was this was only a couple years ago, actually. So I did a project, but I went to Bangladesh for a month, because I still haven't finished the book. But I wanted to write a book on how did that incredibly traditional, patriarchal, economically and socially challenged country, and particularly difficult for women, has been able to have women rise up, basically.

And I've spent a lot of time in that country. And I just, I just, yeah. And so yeah, it was, it was part of that research for the book, Jane.

And I guess what I was interested in is this, and it fits into sort of my work around mindsets and belief is that at the start of before any interventions around mindsets and leadership, so many women like 40, I've got to open up my figures and put my glasses on, I don't have the data right in front of me. But like a really large amount, do not see themselves, rate themselves as a leader at all, like, out of a rating of 10, like 47%. I think it was, they rated themselves there.

Okay. But at the end of the, and it should get my glasses actually, Jane. Yeah, that's okay.

I want to represent. Now that you've pulled it up. So basically, 300 of them, so 47% rated their ability low, between one and three at a scale of 10.

And this number changed to only 3% rating themselves as low after intervention. And that at the higher end of the scale, there was still 17% who thought themselves as leaders between eight and 10 on the scale. And then that jumped to 78% after intervention.

And I guess what I find interesting about this is that we have this perspective that somehow leadership is a, it's a quality, it's a trait. Some people have it, most people don't. Leaders look a certain way.

And mostly we look at that and we think, well, that's not us. And certainly those women in the villages thought that that's not them. And the only thing that changed was investing in their leadership, in their mindsets, in their, the way that they saw what they were capable of.

So that 78% of them moved into seeing, into taking leadership actions and seeing themselves at the higher end of the scale. And what, what as a result of this, Jane, in terms of the impact was, was like, there was like nearly 40,000 campaigns against child dowry, child marriage, people got educated, water was brought to villages by these women who most of whom did not think that they were a leader at all, prior to intervention, prior to changing. And what I just, what I, and I has, I mean, I wrote, did the research for that book, but it tracks with, with here and how, how organisations making that investment and that time building the leadership of everyone.

And so I wrote a book called Unlikely Leaders. Most of us are unlikely leaders, aren't we? Like I was just a dag from Perth who loved rock and roll.

I mean, you're a girl from Leesmore. I mean, look at us. So that capacity is there for all of us.

We may not end up being the CEO of Telstra, but we can make an impact in our life that matters to us. Yes. And it's not written in the stars that you will never be able to do, make, take that moon shot.

And, you know, for a woman in a village, it's standing up and not getting her child married, married off early is a similar kind of courage as it takes to, you know, us going after something here that we feel is, is really hard, like building an amazing practice or something.
[Speaker 2] (35:07 - 36:54)
So, yes. And that does come up a lot, doesn't it? For, particularly for women in their own consulting practices where I don't, I've never, I find it hard to use the word expert or I find it hard to use the word, you know, the, it's like the whole, you know, a little bit of the imposter syndrome or I don't know.

I know that's what I want to do, but I struggle with the brand or the name that I'm calling myself or the category. So, you know, labeling myself an expert in this space, but am I really? I don't know.

I think I'll just kind of go, I'm a technical expert and I'll just stay in that space and, you know, and a bit of fear around, could I actually have the change? Is that actually even really possible? And Cathy, you talk about, in the book, you talk about the four mindsets you've got, expansive, the fixed, the growth, and the limited mindset.

And I love these quadrants that you talk about. You talk about having the victim mindset. You talk about the dictator, who's certainly seeing a bit of that at the moment.

But then, but you talk about, that's the other one, the delayer. And then you talk about the difference between those, between a leader's mindset with, based on your experience in this space, because you, you know, you obviously know how to get people shifted from any of those I guess, over into a leadership mindset, particularly if you're a woman who has her own consulting practice. What do you think that holds women back, particularly if they're in their own, as an entrepreneur and having their own practice?

What do you think holds them back from stepping up into that leadership space based on what you've seen? And, and what do you, what advice would you have for them?

[Speaker 1] (36:56 - 41:57)
Yeah. I loved this research that was done about four years ago, Jane, by the Center for Talent Innovation. Now we're looking at when women and men both come into a career, they're equally ambitious for things.

But over time, men's ambition stays the same, like strong and increases, and women decreases. And they were curious as to find out why that was the case. Okay.

And often it gets put down to all women, you know, we often have families and blah, blah, blah. But actually, their research found that really tracks with my understanding is that women are very present to and overestimate the burden that come with leading, right, underestimate and don't value the great benefit that comes when we lead. And I'm leading in anything in your practice in your community, whatever.

So we were, we don't, and I think for women, one of the key things that we can do is keep working on our own vision for ourself as a leader, ourselves as a successful entrepreneur, ourself is running a really successful practice, because what we what we're, we don't see many of us in the in the public sphere, we have been sort of conditioned to not believe that we we can be as good or we see the obstacles. And we also don't have a vision of our, of our leadership in a way that's true to myself.

So we see leadership or running a practice or being whatever, being a CEO. And got to be exhausting. And women are like, Oh, my God, I that's it.

I don't want it. Yeah, it's really important. We think about what kind of practice do I want?

What sort of business do I want? What sort of clients do I want? What's what's going to feed me and then craft that spend time on that vision?

Because it's got to be juicy enough and compelling enough. And this is like speaking totally. Like, from my own perspective, this is something that I struggle with, Jane, because having had like a massive career, where my tangible impact was, you know, undeniable.

Sometimes I like the vision pieces that I really need to work hard on, like really cultivating that why and that. And me, me in that space, as, as myself, and which, to be honest, a particular trouble with, you know, showing up in that way. But yes, it's like, what do I want?

And it can be what you want, like not what you think other people should want for you, like, be doing your practice should be like this because of whatever, that's just people putting stuff on you and speak again, speaking personally, what do I want? What's going to bring joy and then crafted around that. So, so having a big enough re not even a reason why I mean, it is part of that, but having what are the benefits that come with this?

Like, for me, it's like I get to be fully self expressed, I get to make an impact in the world, I get to share love, I get to help uplift consciousness, I get to talk to amazing people about cool shit. I just like when I like now I'm getting all juiced up about my practice. But it's that kind of thing, as opposed to look at how Joe Blow and Mary Fred and thing are doing it.

And they're always on Instagram, doing Instagram live and doing it. And then that's what I don't think I should, I should be doing that. It's not what I want to do.

It's like, get my own vision and make it easy. And like Mary Oliver says, in her beautiful poem, summer's day is like everything dies. And yet too soon.

Tell me what is it you want to do with your one wild and precious life. And like I'm nearly 60 Jane, I know it's unbelievable to think about that. And so having depth of still a few years off, but having the depth of that.

This is this is we my one life. Yes, having the courage to to envision it and to lead it. How I want, yes, wanting other women to do the same.

And Jane, you are an absolute legend of that. Yes, I can see through people's you never tried. Because working with you as I have been this nearly a year, you never you never try to cookie cut people into their into their practice.

You you see people's things and then you help them craft the best manifestation of that iteration of that. Rather than you should do it how Kathy's done or Kathy should do it, how Fred does, you know, whoever you've got to give to that.

[Speaker 2] (41:58 - 45:44)
So thank you. It's one of those things that we can find that for because your expression of what your practice, your energy, like, you know, if you said, I don't want to, I just want to speak on stages, or I just want to run meant I want to do speaking and mentoring. And because there's an energy and an essence that you have that is so unique.

And I remember Matt Church once saying, I used to think we're in the business of ideas, but realize we're in the business of experiences. And it is because that is the uniqueness that what is the experience of you? Because that's really what you're selling is people kind of go, how do I get to be Kathy?

I want to be Kathy. How did she do that? I want to know how she did that, because I want that for me, you're the expression of what, what that aspiration and hope is, which then leads to the question, if that's the community that I've got to lead, you know, that's a bold, you know, it can be a bit frightening, can't it to be able to say, I'm, I'm leading a community of people who want to be me, really, like, you know, but it's not so much, you're not creating all these minions. It's not, it's not that.

But it's about how does she get to be as fully self expressed as she is, because I'm not trying to be a duplicate of Kathy, but there's elements of me that I am feeling ignited by how Kathy is, there's something there that I'm connecting and resonating with. And what is my version of that? So and I think the question comes up a lot for particularly female consultants, still comes up with men a lot is, who do you lead?

Because when you go out into your own practice, is that we can kind of go, Oh, I don't have to do all that anymore. I don't have to worry about all these people. All I have to do is I just have to speak on stages, I'm going to run workshops, I'm going to run mentoring programs, and that's it.

But there is a shift that comes isn't there, which is around will actually, if you want a sustainable practice, you got to lead, it's not that you've left corporate now, you don't have to worry about all that anymore, is you have to worry about it more than ever, because you are creating the legacy. And if you want a sustainable practice is, you know, it's Dunbar's metrics of the 15, 150 1500. That's the community that we've got to build.

So you're right, I love what you say about that, is that quite often, we we can step out of corporate and go, great, I don't see myself as a leader anymore, I've seen myself back into a technical expert. And now I can be the expert, the thought leader, the guru in that, so I don't have to worry about that. But ultimately, is the real test.

I think in what you're saying, Kathy is that I love that's why I love the title of this book, because it is really about it's not being able to, you know, go, Hey, look at me, I'm such a rock star, is that next phase is actually your job is to lead the community, you got to lead in, and you got to work out who is that community? Who is in that community? Who do you need to support most?

And who values you the most? So because it's really about I think, having that customer for life, really, even if they're working with you for because you have six week program, 12 week program, 12 month programs, three year programs, whatever it is, is that that's the shift and the transformation, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

So Kathy, lucky last question, if you if you had your time again, in your practice, since you started it? Is there anything that you would do differently that you would share with others to help them grow their practices?

[Speaker 1] (45:44 - 48:03)
Um, it reminds me of the great Frank Sinatra song Regrets. I've had a few but then again, what would I do differently? I don't know, Jane.

Um, what I guess I started the whole practice thing as a complete novice. And I came into it with that mindset. And that's what I've loved about it.

Like I sort of put my thing thing that I've done here. And now, like I haven't been running like lots of workshops. I hadn't been had a little consulting business for 10 years prior or anything like that.

So um, what would I do different? I mean, I can't think of anything. There's lots of things.

That I tried didn't work. And I just think you have to like, get into it. And yeah, maybe work with you earlier.

Like I didn't know, you know, that at that time. I mean, I what's been so wonderful working with you, Jane is is just that besides that absolute personal belief you having me and the other women, women of influence, it's just that you're so practical. And that's been really helpful for me because I get like, and you're like, no, so you do.

And also, weirdly, I just love people to tell me what to do. It's just so much easier to hire experts to just do stuff. I think people should work in their zone of genius.

And so I just it just takes away that mental bandwidth. You just say, Kathy, just do this. I just think I don't even question it.

Because what do I know? So just having someone, yeah, maybe earlier, who's for me more practical.

[Speaker 2] (48:03 - 48:04)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (48:04 - 48:12)
And hands on in hands on context, rather than me kind of looking at like that.

[Speaker 2] (48:12 - 49:41)
Yeah, I've loved working with you, Kathy, because of your vision, you know, I just go, she just thinks so big. And she thinks in so much possibility, you talk a lot about possibility in your book. And, and I just, I mean, all of what you can what you can do.

So you're right, is that it's that focus of how do we just keep Kathy in her genius, because she has got big ideas. She's got big networks, she's got big programs that she knows how to roll out. And she, she's got a really, she's already made an incredibly big impact, she's got an even bigger one to do.

So. So I'm glad that you see that, because that's, I think that's where the people that we work with, I think, for women with influence, and even if they're in our community or not, I think that if you always believe if you can get the right people around you, if you've got a big enough vision, and you've been a CEO, so you know what this is like is that there are and to remind people, there are people out there who can help you for us as women, I think we just try to do so much by ourselves. And sometimes we have to do that, because of the resources that we have when we're starting and things like that. But as time goes on, it's okay, it's okay to ask for help.

And if you've got some big ideas, they're all possible. And I think Kathy, you are a shining example of what truly is possible. So thank you so much for being on today.

For those if you want to jump on and make sure you jump onto it, do where would you like people to go? Kathy is where what I should actually ask you.

[Speaker 1] (49:42 - 49:57)
Yeah, so maybe just go to the website, which is Kathy Burke, which is B-U-R-K-E, not the Melbourne.com. I do a weekly newsletter on there, of course.

[Speaker 2] (49:57 - 49:57)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (49:59 - 50:05)
And just just stuff on there. And if you're interested in my book, you can find out more about it on that page as well.

[Speaker 2] (50:07 - 50:17)
Thank you so much, Kathy. It's been a pleasure to have you. We can't wait to have you back and hear about your journey ahead.

And thanks for jumping on everyone today. Thanks, Joan.