Episode 30- Interview with Trust Expert Deb Lange

25 Jun

Podcast is also available on the versions below:

Get Notified Of Future Episodes on Apple Podcasts | Spotify

In this episode, Deb and I talk things personal branding and how building trust is fundamental in an organisation. Deb talks about how being in the brand you business gets you that work-life balance.

Deb Lange is a keynote speaker who helps senior executives, experts, entrepreneurs make sense of complexity, foster relationships and culture in organisations where people's creativity flourishes. Deborah re-introduces people into ways to playfully gain new insights.

Key Takeaways from Today’s Episode:

In the opening segment of the podcast, Jane Anderson introduces her show, "The Jane Anderson Brand New Show," which focuses on personal branding and aims to help experts enhance their impact, influence, and income in their businesses and careers. She emphasizes the importance of personal connection in business interactions, stating that people tend to engage with those they know, like, and trust. Jane welcomes the audience and introduces her special guest for the episode, Deb Lange, who specializes in helping senior executives, experts, and entrepreneurs navigate complexity, foster relationships, and promote a culture of creativity in organizations.
Deb Lange describes her business as a one-person venture with contractors to assist in specialized areas like administration, accounting, and graphic design. She reflects on her 25 years of experience in this solo entrepreneurial model, highlighting a shift in perception from the past when such setups were less celebrated. Deb shares insights from her early consultancy experiences, where she was chosen for her individual expertise rather than being part of a larger firm. She emphasizes the growing trend of clients seeking personalized services from individual experts rather than large consultancy firms.
Deb discusses the current organizational landscape's transition from hierarchical structures to flatter, more networked setups, leading to an engagement dilemma. She focuses on bridging the gap between managers and employees, fostering reciprocal relationships, and creating a culture of trust and collaboration. Deb's approach involves live engagement with clients, including executive teams, to facilitate trust-building and meaningful dialogue. She highlights the importance of experiential learning and workshops in developing essential skills for navigating organizational dynamics.
Deb explains her decision to use her name for her business website (DebLang.com), emphasizing the importance of trust and relationship-building in her line of work. She reflects on the vulnerability associated with putting one's name on the business and the necessity of feeling comfortable and confident in oneself to do so effectively. Jane shares her own journey of transitioning to a personal branding approach, recognizing the shift in perception from fear to empowerment. They discuss how social media has leveled the playing field for solopreneurs and small businesses, enabling greater visibility and trust-building opportunities.

This segment provides insights into Deb Lange's expertise, her approach to client engagement, and the significance of personal branding in establishing trust and credibility in today's business landscape.
Deb discusses the evolving landscape of entrepreneurship, noting a shift towards valuing individual expertise over faceless corporate entities. She highlights the increasing number of people venturing into independent businesses due to dissatisfaction with large corporates and growing confidence in their abilities. Deb shares her personal experience of building a lifestyle-friendly business, enabling her to balance work with parenting, caregiving, and professional development. She emphasizes the importance of maintaining a presence in the business even during periods of personal commitments, suggesting avenues like blogging or book writing to stay connected with clients and prospects.
Deb emphasizes the significance of personal connection in building trust, urging individuals to share authentic aspects of themselves to deepen relationships with clients and audiences. She advocates for a balance between privacy and authenticity, where individuals choose what to share based on their comfort level. Jane discusses the power of social media, particularly video content, in portraying the real essence of a person and fostering trust. They highlight the value of genuine, unfiltered content in creating meaningful connections with audiences.
Deb encourages entrepreneurs to embrace their unique strengths and passions when building their businesses, rather than conforming to predefined roles or expectations. She shares a success story of a client who discovered her true passion for relationship-building, leading to a fulfilling career shift. Deb emphasizes the importance of aligning one's business with their authentic self, allowing for continuous evolution and adaptation based on personal growth and changing market dynamics. Jane acknowledges the transformative power of embracing individuality and leveraging it to create meaningful impact in the entrepreneurial journey.
The conversation concludes with Jane expressing admiration for Deb's work and its profound impact on individuals pursuing entrepreneurship. Deb reflects on the joy of witnessing her clients' profound self-discovery and alignment with their true passions. Jane highlights the significance of personal fulfillment and impact in entrepreneurial endeavors, echoing Deb's sentiment of helping others thrive. Deb shares her upcoming plans, including the release of her first book titled "Instinct" and a subsequent book focusing on leadership and followership in flatter organizational structures. She discusses the innovative elements of her book, such as a journal coloring book section and accompanying e-course. Jane invites listeners to connect with Deb on LinkedIn and visit her website to learn more about her work and upcoming book releases. The conversation ends on a note of gratitude and anticipation for Deb's future endeavors.

Full Show Transcript:

[Speaker 2] (0:02 - 2:06)
My name is Jane Anderson and this is the Jane Anderson Brand New Show. It's the podcast for experts who want to have greater impact, influence and income for their businesses and careers. As experts we know that people buy from people and work with people who they know, who they like and who they trust.

So I am so glad you're here because it's that time again now to really amplify how you show up in the world. Hi there and welcome to the Jane Anderson Brand New Show where we talk all things personal branding and in particular YourName.com because we believe that businesses and the way that people buy, that people buy from people and they buy from people who they know, who they like and who they trust. And it is my pleasure to introduce a wonderful and very special guest today.

Our guest today helps senior executives, experts and entrepreneurs make sense of complexity, foster relationships and culture in organisations where our creativity flourishes. She introduces us into ways to playfully gain new insights. So she is a keynote speaker.

She gets involved in things like research to find indicators of success and indicators for change. She also runs programs on things like turning feedback conversations into ongoing development conversations. She has programs that run things like meeting mojo design, so making meetings that foster creative and productive outcomes, experience design for workshops.

She mentors executives and experts and entrepreneurs and she runs offsite executive team and workshop facilitation. And our very special guest name is Deb Lange.
[Speaker 1] (2:07 - 2:16)
Hi, thank you. Thank you for that wonderful welcome. What a great show with YourName.com.

Fantastic. Thank you for having me.

[Speaker 2] (2:17 - 2:57)
My pleasure, Deb. And I'm really interested in the work that you do and I think it's great to have you on the show for us all to learn from you and because, you know, I think for all of us, you know, for some of us who, you know, we work in this branded space where we are solopreneurs and we live in this world of OurName.com and our name is so valuable. And I'd love to hear your perspective through that lens.

And so before we get underway, just if you could tell us a little bit about the type of business that you have, the type of people you help and how do you do all that?

[Speaker 1] (2:58 - 3:01)
Okay, thanks, Jane. That was a big question.

[Speaker 2] (3:01 - 3:02)
It is, isn't it?

[Speaker 1] (3:02 - 5:20)
Yes, it is. Well, the type of business I have, I am a one person YourName.com business with contractors to help out with areas that I'm not a specialist in, which may be admin or accounting or graphic design or whatever else. And believe it or not, I've been in a business like that for 25 years before it was even the way to go.

And, in fact, it was almost like you couldn't be proud of that 25 years ago. It was kind of you were doing it in a bit of a sneaky way. Because it wasn't like it was important enough.

Like a business had to be, you know, staff, a team, it had to be something you sold. So the one person solo sort of entrepreneur, yeah, it wasn't as big as it is today, obviously. However, my first ever consultancy, and this is really quite important because why I was chosen was because I was a one person business.

Because it was a big corporate and they decided that they'd often engage the big corporate consultancy firms. But they never got the names of the people who had established those consultancy firms. They often got the juniors.

And so they'd end up disappointed. So it was a big corporate company that said, well, we want a group of facilitator consultants. And, in fact, it was to, in fact, coach the managers in facilitation skills and team engagement.

But they decided they would engage single entrepreneurs. And so there was a group of six of us in the end, but we were all in our own solo businesses. And so they were quite forward thinking at the time.

And I think, of course, that is very prevalent today, that people do want the person on the shingle. They don't want somebody else in the junior or the, you know, the person still being trained or whatever else. I mean, I know the corporates are still buying the big consultancy companies and there's still the place for them.

Although I think, interestingly, a lot of the big consultancies do more research, which then they provide to people like us, which is great.

[Speaker 2] (5:22 - 5:29)
So, Deb, what exactly do you deliver when you are working with your clients?

[Speaker 1] (5:30 - 7:38)
Well, it's really fantastic today because there is this huge engagement dilemma, engagement issue. And so we are in this transition from very controlling organisations, hierarchical organisations, to flatter, more networked organisations. But we're still working it out.

So what that means, if you've got managers, business owners and employees kind of floundering in a way, trying to work out, well, years ago I used to have to respect authority, you know, the hierarchy. Well, now, in fact, I don't. I won't respect you unless you really earn it.

But how does that place me? Because you've got power over me to hire or fire. So if I want to speak up about ideas, am I making myself vulnerable or aren't I?

And then for a manager, oh, well, I have to develop my employees. Well, then will my job be taken away? So there's a whole lot of actually fear and distrust and insecurity in an organisation.

And so I go and help build bridges between, if there are, obviously there are still hierarchies, even fairly flat organisations, there's still normally a management structure and employees, really what I call a much more reciprocal relationship where we're seeing each other as human beings. We're seeing each other as people. It doesn't matter what our title is.

And, of course, it doesn't matter where I am in the organisation. If I can see a job that needs done or something innovative, I can actually sort of step up and say, well, I can see that. I'd like the authority to lead that, no matter, you know, what my title.

And maybe I lead a project for a while, and then when that comes to an end, maybe I go back to my original job, you know, and maybe I'm following somebody else in another team. But there's much more a reciprocal relationship between a manager and an employee and the ability to step up and lead or step sideways or step down and support rather than in a traditional hierarchy.

[Speaker 2] (7:39 - 7:45)
And so do you do that, do you do workshops or training or coaching or how does that work?

[Speaker 1] (7:46 - 8:26)
Well, what I love doing is actually working what I'd call live with a group of people. So, for example, soon I'll be working with an executive team. They've got a new CEO coming in.

So I'll be working with them to build their new team, basically, build the relationships, build the trust across that group of people and help them with a way forward so that they can keep building a high level of safety and trust to have the conversations they need to have. But, of course, if I don't get to work live, yes, I do do workshops or training programs where people can learn the skills.

[Speaker 2] (8:26 - 8:27)
Right.

[Speaker 1] (8:27 - 8:53)
It's still quite live because I actually try and make, well, I do make design, very experiential design. So, you know, the old fashioned thing of sort of talk and talk where there's, you know, if there's anything to be read, it's done outside of the workshop space and then inside the workshop space is the space where we get to engage, talk, communicate, give feedback, you know, in pairs and so it's all highly experiential.

[Speaker 2] (8:53 - 8:58)
Right. And so what made you decide to use DebLang.com?

[Speaker 1] (8:59 - 9:31)
Well, I am a one person business. So I am the brand. I want people to know that if they want my services, they're buying me.

They're building a relationship with me. We build safety and trust with one another so that I can really take them to a place that perhaps maybe they haven't gone before, they haven't got the skills to go before. And so trust is absolutely fundamental because otherwise, we can only go as far as we trust one another.

[Speaker 2] (9:32 - 9:32)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (9:32 - 10:04)
But the deeper trust we have, the more openness there is, the more we can actually be vulnerable and share what we really don't know and then we can actually help. And solve those problems. But if we're all playing bravado or pretending that we know a whole lot of stuff because we don't feel a high level of trust, we only skim the surface.

You know, we just don't, we can't dig deep and really get to, you know, the root of challenges and issues and so it's kind of like a surface level thing.

[Speaker 2] (10:05 - 11:48)
It's so true you say that. Like now that I sort of, you know, just listening to you more, you know, it makes me think about Brene Brown's work around, like you talked about, the whole vulnerability and, you know, when I had my previous business and I still have it but from shifting over into the YourName.com, you know, back when I had that business, one of the things that when I first started was that I was so, I was so scared of putting my name on the shingle because I thought, oh, what if something goes wrong?

What about my reputation and, you know, all those types of things and I had this huge fear of what if something goes wrong and my name is plastered all over everything and yet it was the big, the not having my name on there was creating the greatest disconnect and commoditising me and so I was competing on price all the time or finding it really hard to differentiate. So you couldn't be the leader. It was very hard to be the leader in the space because people associate the leadership really with the person as opposed to, as you said, like a different brand on the front and so people just, they just couldn't connect and so they and so, you know, when I had competitors who were all sort of losing, they were sort of going back to jobs when we had a big change here in Queensland with a lot of people who had lost their jobs, that real shift into that yourname.com, you're so right. It just really does, people know immediately who they're dealing with, don't they?

[Speaker 1] (11:49 - 12:24)
And how great that you got over your vulnerability because, yes, it's sort of because I have worked for myself for so long, I've sort of got, I've got used to that but I can remember at the beginning, yes, feeling like, well, who am I to call myself my business and my name? And I think that is, well, to varying degrees, I mean, some people are comfortable with that and they'll just do it and I think it's a lot more accepted today. It's what people are looking for, especially if you are in the business of providing expertise and advice.

[Speaker 2] (12:25 - 12:25)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (12:26 - 12:30)
But it does take something to be willing to put your name there.

[Speaker 2] (12:31 - 12:31)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (12:31 - 12:46)
You are standing there in the limelight saying, here am I, come and see and so you have to feel good about yourself, you have to feel really comfortable with yourself to be able to do that.

[Speaker 2] (12:46 - 14:08)
It's quite raw, isn't it? And Deb, did you ever feel like, I mean, if I think about you, you know, being in business, you've been doing this for 25 years, which I think is just incredible. So you've seen a lot in that time and I guess for someone like my age, I've sort of come through, you know, going, you know, social media has created this platform that's levelled the playing field and so people under your name.com who are solopreneurs, even if, you know, if I think about the Brian Tracys and who those have got really big platforms, you know, you can still be the small player in the big industry and social media has sort of made that change happen for people like us that are, you know, solopreneurs or we just have small teams.

But did you before all that has happened or did you start to see that change happen quite early? Because if you've been in your business for 25 years and, you know, we were talking a bit earlier about, you know, how that wasn't necessarily the done thing, have you noticed the shift in trust in people as a result of, you know, this transparency now or have there been other things that you've noticed along the way?

[Speaker 1] (14:09 - 16:26)
Yes, I have noticed the change. That first company that took me on, they were forward thinking, but that thinking has increased of wanting the person, not just wanting a company that's kind of faceless and not knowing who you're going to get in the company. So I think that has increased definitely and, of course, there's been more and more people wanting to go out on their own because they've been dissatisfied with working for large corporates.

I think more people have developed more confidence and trust in themselves to actually be able to do that. So there has been a big change. The biggest thing for me, if people are thinking about going into brand new, it is a fantastic lifestyle and it has created a fantastic lifestyle for me because I did do it to be able to have children and have school holidays off and not have to negotiate things with, you know, a company.

So I could do that for my lifestyle and then I also, in midlife, took a lot of time out to care for my ageing parents. So I've been able to do all sorts of things and I've also included sabbaticals for my own training and professional development. So I've been able to do all of those things that I've wanted to for lifestyle, a life work balance integration.

But one of the things that I did do when I did take some time out to care for my parents and have a sabbatical is that I did let go of the business at that stage and I think for anyone in the brand new business, I think no matter how small you get because of maybe some lifestyle choices, now with technology I would highly recommend that people still at least blog or write a book in that time or still have, you know, a few clients or still be positioning themselves even if you are doing something else.

And I think we can do that today with technology. So you can choose how much you want to work or how little depending on that, you know, that lifestyle choice when you are a brand new.

[Speaker 2] (16:27 - 17:12)
That's great advice, Deb. I think that, you know, for you, you've seen the cycles and, you know, those shifts and now that it's much easier to keep visible or to keep productive, that's really powerful. What are some of the things that you think that, you know, even the intro to the show that I talk about is people work with people who they know and who they like and who they trust.

What are some of the things, and I might be putting you on the spot a bit here, but that you see that people who have brand new type businesses can do to build trust in their businesses and with their audiences?

[Speaker 1] (17:14 - 17:18)
Well, I think one of the biggest things to build trust is actually sharing yourself.

[Speaker 2] (17:18 - 17:19)
Right.

[Speaker 1] (17:20 - 17:36)
And so whether that's one-on-one or whether or not that's, you know, in a group when you're about to facilitate a group or if you are having a business meeting, the more we share of ourselves, the more others are willing to share of themselves.

[Speaker 2] (17:36 - 17:37)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (17:37 - 17:38)
So it's like we have to model that.

[Speaker 2] (17:38 - 17:39)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (17:39 - 19:00)
Now, it doesn't mean you have to share all your, everything that's in your... Dirty laundry. Yeah, you don't.

You still can be discerning and you've still got a private life that you might want to keep or even though everybody's on Facebook as well, so there's this blurring of private and professional. But we still get to choose and we've got so much about ourselves. We can choose.

We can choose to share something which does help build trust. And the simplest things are getting to know people as people. Yes.

Like to begin a conversation and start getting to know each other as human beings. Right. And, you know, what our interests are and it might seem like you're there to do the work but that part of the work is building the relationship.

And if you don't have the relationship, later on, if you're working together, if you haven't connected deeply, it'll be harder to get through challenges or tensions. But if you build a relationship and you build trust, you back each other more. You can make mistakes which are just not a normal part of work and life and go, oh, okay, well, that didn't quite work.

But we trust each other and we're going to do it better next time or whatever. But if you haven't got the relationship, well, then it's just, ah, that wasn't a very good walk away. But so being personal.

[Speaker 2] (19:01 - 20:58)
Okay. And that's interesting because I've just been doing some work on, you know, that's really three levels to building your presence, I think, particularly through social media. And I think, you know, so often I think we've focused on, you know, keeping visible and then, you know, which can be through curation and things like that.

Then we've got our original thought leadership so that we've got our visibility but then from there that thought leadership builds our credibility. But then I don't know if you're noticing but I'm noticing a bit more of particularly video, you know, through social media, being able to bring more of that on the run type, you know, so that you can bring your personality into it. If I look at things like I guess that's why to me that's why Snapchat has become so popular because I feel people get a sense of the real you.

I don't know if you've had a look at Snapchat but when I'm talking more to people about social media, you know, there's all the sort of, you know, really nice polished stuff. But, you know, I remember when I first did Snapchat, the person who assists me, Helena, she said I remember taking, I took this video of a cup of coffee when I was at the airport and it was a cappuccino or something and I sent it to her and I said, so is this the type of stuff you're talking about putting on Snapchat? And she goes, that's perfect, that's awesome.

And I said, are you serious? This seems like just so boring to me. She said, yeah, but it's real.

This is, you know, she said, you know, this is what people want and I think she's, you know, the more I've started to work with that and I think looking at things like Facebook Live and, you know, it's being able to get a sense of that real you and I think video has been a real contributor to that. That gets the, it's the cut through that it creates and therefore the trust, isn't it?

[Speaker 1] (20:58 - 21:36)
And I think you're right. And, of course, you can be just, you know, really discerning at, you know, there's going to be parts of your life you're not going to share but then there are parts you're willing to share and when you do that, yes, people do go feel the real you and can connect with you or not and that's okay because we're not going to connect with everybody but in showing that more informal real you, it is, you know, you're showing up as being the authentic you and because some of the other stuff is more crafted.

And, yeah, I think people like that today. They want the real you.

[Speaker 2] (21:36 - 21:53)
Yes. Yeah. And I think that's so valuable.

I think we're seeing that more and more. So, you know, during this time, so, you know, I've had incredible experience in this space. So is there anything that you would do differently if you had your time again?

[Speaker 1] (21:55 - 22:06)
Well, I think we sort of mentioned that a bit earlier. What I would do differently is when I needed to take time out for various things, still really maintain a presence.

[Speaker 2] (22:07 - 22:07)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (22:07 - 22:41)
Whether it's through nowadays, you know, through blogging, through book writing, through some speaking or whatever but just maintaining that presence rather than, you know, whether that's viable or not. Obviously there are some circumstances where people might be really unwell or, yes, caring for dying or sick parents or whatever else and maybe you can't. But if there's some element of keeping your toe in the water, so to speak.

[Speaker 2] (22:41 - 22:41)
Right.

[Speaker 1] (22:42 - 23:07)
And I guess too because I shifted. I was very much doing organisational work and during that period of time I really shifted into the one-on-one personal development space. Okay.

And then to shift back into the organisational space was basically like starting a business and then starting another business and then starting another one. Right. So I've been self-employed for all that time but it's been three distinctly different brand me's.

[Speaker 2] (23:08 - 23:20)
Yeah. And I guess do you think, Deb, that that's sort of been, I guess, an advantage of having YourName.com because you've been able to make those flexible sort of moves?

[Speaker 1] (23:21 - 24:25)
Oh, definitely, definitely. Right. Yeah, and I can still see in the years to come that there'll be, like there's a period now where I'm back with organisational work and I'm loving it and I love the energy of, you know, being with people in workshops and that kind of thing, just absolutely love it.

But I can see another iteration, you know, down the track. And, in fact, a whole lot of different work because, for example, that experience I had caring for my parents, when I'm older, I would actually like to do work around ageing well, dying well, but not yet. So, you know, that will be another iteration.

Yeah, so you can do that when it's brand new. The different experiences we have in life, we can all of a sudden develop that into there are people who've got that problem, you've solved it, so you can help that group of people. And then, for whatever reason, if you're a person who likes a lot of variety, you can leave that behind and then you develop a new thing that you've overcome or that you've worked on and it's a new set of problems that you're helping somebody with.

[Speaker 2] (24:25 - 24:25)
Yes.

[Speaker 1] (24:26 - 24:29)
So it's ever-evolving. Yeah.
[Speaker 2] (24:29 - 24:54)
And so if you had someone, you know, a lot of our listeners, they either have their own business dot com, sorry, their name dot com type business or they're thinking about doing it. If you had someone there, you know, in front of you saying, you know, what advice would you have for me with building my business under that name? Is there anything in particular advice that you would give them?

[Speaker 1] (24:55 - 26:06)
I think the biggest thing is to really dig deep into what it is that you love, that you know well, that solves a particular problem because you've solved it and there are other people out in the world who might have that problem who you can help. And don't try and be somebody else or like perhaps in the corporate world, you had to be a particular role or play out something for somebody. When you're your name dot com, you get to be you.

You get to choose the work that you want. So you don't have to pretend. And it's like, well, I'm mentoring this woman who has moved from corporate to her own business.

And originally she thought she was a business analyst, she was a great project manager, she had really great skills, great, you know, big international organisation, wanted to go back and be a consultant in that field. And she had all those skills but she didn't really want to do that. Right.

And so when she worked with me, I helped her identify what it was, what made her such a good business analyst and project manager, and it was basically all her relationship skills.

[Speaker 2] (26:06 - 26:07)
Wow. Okay.

[Speaker 1] (26:07 - 27:04)
And that's what she loved and that's what she didn't find in any project manuals anywhere. Yes. And so that's the business she's developing now and that's what she's absolutely buzzing with excitement and energy that she's developed all her new intellectual property around relationships in building relationships across, you know, projects and in that kind of work.

But she's now not going back as an advisor on project management, it's an advisor on building the relationships across the system. And she loves it. Wow.

You know, if she'd just gone back and been a project management consultant, it's like having the same job but just for herself. But when she really got to see what it was she loved, which was totally different from how she used to talk about it, she's now thriving.

[Speaker 2] (27:06 - 27:57)
Isn't that incredible? Because that really, what an incredible story. I'm so glad you shared that because, you know, that's really that essence of who that person is and the uniqueness that they bring because how many other project managers or business analysts out there or people who manage business analysts go, geez, I wish I could just get better at these relationships, managing the relationships, they're so focused on these, but that's what made her so great.

And she's worked out a way that solves a problem, a big problem that people are willing to buy. And she gets to become herself in being so, her most fully self-expressed that she brings something that she thrives off that adds so much value. What an incredible story.

That's fantastic.

[Speaker 1] (27:58 - 28:04)
Yeah, it is. And it's so great, so great to work with people when they get that, you know, when they really get what they're on about.

[Speaker 2] (28:05 - 28:30)
That's great. I love it. And that's, you know, she gets to have a bigger impact, which is what, as you know, that's sort of my real purpose is around helping people have a greater impact and so that the people she can work with have a greater impact.

So that's terrific. So, Deb, you're doing extraordinary work. So what are your plans for the next 12 to 18 months?

What are you working on?

[Speaker 1] (28:31 - 28:35)
Well, in the next month my first book will be out.

[Speaker 2] (28:35 - 28:38)
Oh, fantastic. What is it called?

[Speaker 1] (28:39 - 28:48)
It's called Instinct, how to trust yourself, how to trust your senses and intuition to make powerful choices for your life and your work.

[Speaker 2] (28:48 - 28:49)
Wow, I can't wait to read it.

[Speaker 1] (28:50 - 30:13)
So that's the first one. What I'm excited about that too is that because everyone's into creativity these days. So the third part of the book is basically like a journal colouring in book.

Right. And so that's going to be when people buy the book they'll also get to download that as a PDF journal and, you know, either draw themselves or colour in all the beautiful drawings in the guidebook. And I've got 36 videos to go with that.

So if people want to do more they can buy an e-course to go with it. And if they want more they can, you know, have my services as a mentor and coach. So that's awesome.

And then I've got a draft of the second book that I want to get out in the next 12 months. And that's all around what I've been talking about a lot lately is what I call leadership and followership. Right.

And so that's around the flatter organisation, the ability for people to step up and lead no matter what their title and also for people to step into following and being good followers and supporters and in what I see as a very reciprocal role, very different role from the hierarchical organisation. So that's the book I want to get out in the world and that's what I want to go out and speak about and lead workshops on. So that's my next 12, 18 months.

[Speaker 2] (30:14 - 30:34)
Wow, that's great. What an exciting time ahead for you. So if we want to find out more about you and we want to find out more about the work you're doing or if people want to buy your book when it comes out, so it's out in the next month.

So by the time this podcast comes out it won't be too far off. So where's the best spot to find you, Deb?

[Speaker 1] (30:34 - 30:56)
Well, I'm on LinkedIn and I'm on LinkedIn as Deborah Lang. Yes. It is a D-E-B-O-R-A-H.

Okay. And my website is deblang.com which is D-E-B-L-A-N-G-E.com and there'll be a new website by then too. Okay.

[Speaker 2] (30:57 - 30:59)
Yeah. There's lots of renewal happening at the moment.

[Speaker 1] (31:00 - 31:01)
Yes, definitely. Reinvention.

[Speaker 2] (31:02 - 32:31)
Thank you so much for being on the show today, Deb. You really are bringing something I think that, I mean, you can hear through the stories and your passion as well as your compassion for people who are trying to be brave and do the yourname.com. You know, it can be a really courageous thing to do but in your case you've been before your time and, you know, we've been able to learn so much from you today.

I love that you've shared some of the personal aspects around, you know, having your own children and being able to care for your parents. I think, you know, workplace and work-life flexibility and those types of things is sort of like the holy grail for people. But sometimes, you know, when you're on this trajectory into your own business, the flexibility that you thought you might have, you don't always have unless you're going about it the right way.

So on behalf of all of us, we really appreciate being able to tap into your expertise and your experience today. So make sure you jump onto Deb's website. So again, that's www.deblang.com and she's also on LinkedIn under Debra Lang, D-E-B-O-R-A-H, L-A-N-G-E. Make sure you connect with Deb. Follow her blogs. We'll keep an eye out for your book as well.

And we look forward to perhaps hearing about your next book next year.

[Speaker 1] (32:31 - 32:42)
Awesome. Thanks, Jen. It's been great having a conversation with you and great that you've got so many people listening in to this fabulous podcast.

Awesome. Thank you.

[Speaker 2] (32:42 - 32:42)
Thank you.